receptive vs. expressive - history?

Thu Oct 22 14:46:43 UTC 2009

SignWriting List
October 22, 2009

Hello Tini!
Thank you for this lovely message, and for your kind words...I am so  
happy to know that your dance students are enjoying DanceWriting...

I guess, by reading your message, I can see I was wrong to say we met  
in 1970 in Copenhagen...It sounds like we met in Copenhagen in 1974,  
when I returned to Denmark to teach the Royal Danish Ballet in  
DanceWriting, with my new book...which was written in 1973...

Did you know that people can still buy that old book? On  
Amazon.com...But it is really only for history now...since the system  
has changed so much since 1974!

So you used the Benesh Dance Notation System (Choreology) before? It  
is a good system too ;-))

There are hundreds of dance notation systems in the  
world...Labanotation was, in those days, the most used, and Benesh was  
number 2...I am hoping that maybe later, DanceWriting might catch on  
again, after SignWriting is so spread that I am not needed any longer  
and I can write a new textbook on DanceWriting - ha!

No matter what, Tini, I thank you for bringing back such lovely  
memories...

Please send my best wishes to Henk too...

Val ;-)

-----------

On Oct 22, 2009, at 6:02 AM, Tini Pel wrote:

> Yes Valerie, I have found memories from the 3 high upstairs ballet  
> studio in Copenhagen.
>
> I have a signed copy of your Dance writing book. I was using Benish  
> at that time and when I saw yours I  was right away taken in with it  
> because of it's clear straight forward figures on paper. I have sat  
> behind several choreographers notating  on your Sutton table when  
> there was no portable affordable  video machines available.
> I am forever thankful for the opportunity to learn Sutton Dance  
> Writing. It is easy to teach it to children as they love to draw  
> stick figures and let them dance.
> Than you Valerie,
>
> Tini.
>
>
>
>
> On 21-Oct-09, at 1:19 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>
>> SignWriting List
>> October 21, 2009
>>
>> Actually Tini and I knew each other since Copenhagen in  
>> 1970...isn't that right Tini? We knew each other before the first  
>> book in DanceWriting was published in 1973.
>>
>> Did we really meet in 1978, Charles? I thought it was in the early  
>> 1980's. Because I did not start working in the true sense, with  
>> SignWriting, until 1981. In 1978, we did have correspondence  
>> courses in DanceWriting from the Boston Conservatory of Music and  
>> Tini was one of our students. But the SignWriter Newspaper was  
>> first published in 1981, and I thought that was how we met,  
>> Charles? So I thought it was around 1981 or 1982...but my memory is  
>> poor too! funny isn't it..we are all getting old!
>>
>> And DanceWriting can be seen as receptive, but actually it is  
>> neither receptive nor expressive. DanceWriting is taken from the  
>> "stage view" and adjusts to many viewpoints depending on the choice  
>> of the writer...So Tini is correct that it can be written  
>> expressively and if that is what you are doing Tini, that is fine!
>>
>> Anyway, there is no question that the writing system can  
>> technically be written from any viewpoint, but Gerard is correct.  
>> We have a world standard when it comes to SignWriting and we need  
>> that for most teachers, who are sooo busy and can only handle so  
>> much...so when we teach SignWriting today, we teach the Expressive.  
>> That is what is natural to most people. Most people are not writing  
>> from videotape. They are writing directly in their own sign  
>> language...their daily primary language, and they look at their own  
>> hands and feel their own face, and do not put themselves in the  
>> position of  an imaginary person facing them...
>>
>> So everyone is welcome to teach as they wish, but Maria, if i were  
>> you, I personally suggest teaching in the Expressive for  
>> SignWriting...I would not throw both viewpoints at beginning  
>> students...it is too much for them -
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> -------
>>
>> On Oct 21, 2009, at 10:03 AM, Tini Pel wrote:
>>
>>> You might be right at that Charles about 1978. I sometimes do get  
>>> mixed up about dates  in my old age.
>>> Tini.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21-Oct-09, at 9:25 AM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ah, that's a bit of information I have not had, as I learned from  
>>>> Valerie directly between 1978 and 1981.  We both were switching  
>>>> over to expressive at that point.
>>>>
>>>> Charles
>>>>
>>>> --- On Wed, 10/21/09, Tini Pel <tinipel at onlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: Tini Pel <tinipel at onlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, October 21, 2009, 9:04 AM
>>>>
>>>> Hi Charles,
>>>> Just a little note:
>>>> I write dance writing being behind the dancer, or I become the  
>>>> dancer. Since  the early ' 70-tees.
>>>> Have a great day
>>>>
>>>> L.I.F.E.
>>>>
>>>> Tini.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 20-Oct-09, at 11:37 PM, Charles Butler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For me, I learned receptive first, so it was literally "write  
>>>>> what you see" when you are seeing someone else's hands.  Then  
>>>>> when they switched, I considered it an extension.  I just teach  
>>>>> "write what you see".  Then receptive is for transcribing  
>>>>> something brand new if you don't know the meaning, and then  
>>>>> expressive when you have moved it to your own hands.  Expressive  
>>>>> has become the standard for the dictionaries and most usage.   
>>>>> Dance writing is still, apparently, receptive.  It took me hours  
>>>>> to transcribe video tape because I think to write what someone  
>>>>> else is doing, and then reverse it to my hands is the challenge.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Tue, 10/20/09, MARIA AZZOPARDI  
>>>>> <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: MARIA AZZOPARDI <maria.azzopardi at um.edu.mt>
>>>>> Subject: [sw-l] receptive vs. expressive - history?
>>>>> To: "SignWriting List" <sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 5:13 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering what to do with the receptive and expressive  
>>>>> view points,
>>>>> when teaching signwriting.
>>>>>
>>>>> As teachers of signwriting, would you include this explanation -  
>>>>> or would
>>>>> presenting the two possibilities create a problem that might not  
>>>>> be there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've found that when I explain how to signwrite the different  
>>>>> orientations
>>>>> I explain the 'expressive viewpt' and never include the  
>>>>> receptive view, so
>>>>> as not to 'teach' them something that I will later have to  
>>>>> unteach.
>>>>>
>>>>> do you find that explaining the expressive view and leaving out  
>>>>> the
>>>>> 'receptive' writing, acceptable?
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks
>>>>> Maria
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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