invisible person in ASL storytelling...

Fri Sep 18 15:46:37 UTC 2009

Maybe I was too rash: there is a differnce between composing or translating a written message on the one hand, and transcribing a spoken/ signed message on the other. 
In transcribing, of course the job is to write what you see or hear, not to put in anything additional. 
But in composing or translating for a written document, we transform the language somewhat. 
In spoken languages, the written form does not have all the nuances of inflection, speed etc. that the poken form has, so the written form has to be more complete and 'follow the rules'. In written form, we use 'inverted commas' or "citation markers" to indicate that something is said in another way or by another person. 

- The story we are talking about now, was told by a scribe, John, who does not himself appear in the story. He tells about two other persons, Jesus and the deaf-mute man. So the signer is signing a translation of what the scribe wrote, that one person (Jesus) puts his fingers into another persons ears. Transcribing should of course show what the signer signed, but for a written translation, why should one of the missing persons be shown and not the other? 

To me, this example is maybe the strongest one I have to give to those out there still thinking we do not need to write the signed languages ... 

Ingvild 

From: icemandeaf at gmail.com
To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
Subject: Re: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:30:52 -0700

To be honest, I think writing in the second head is too much for everyday writing. I couldn't even begin to read the sign. But when Val wrote it without and it was placed in the flow of the reading, it was clear to me what was happaning. It reminds me of a point in The Cat in the Hat where the cat is balancing items on his paws, head, and tail. There were no "item" symbols placed and the story still read fine. I feel it is the same here. Like any language, when reading it, a person with the language knowledge will fill in the blanks that a person without the same knowledge would miss. I have noticed that this use of classifiers is one that many non native signers have a hard time understanding at first. 
Adam

On Sep 18, 2009, at 8:11 AM, "Bill Reese" <wreese01 at tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

That's an interesting idea, Ingvild.  That seems to be a difference,
again, between a linguistic study and a written language.  It's a topic
that would definitely need to be debated - would it be an additional
standard, an option, or would it be too confusing when interpreting a
sign?  In the issue at hand, there is no second man in the signing
itself but there is one in the story.   So does the story line become
what it signed or the movement made by the story teller?  How would we
apply the idea to placement markers, which indicate separate people
within a story - would we be free to add faces to each location to
indicate a person?  Would this lead to adding abstract symbols for
other things, animate and inanimate.  Would sign writing become more
iconic and complex because if it?

Obviously, if the expressive viewpoint can be written without ever
being actually expressed - as in a writer directly writing a story
without transcription of what someone else is signing - then it opens
up the idea of presenting everyone involved in the story - the same as
placement markers would do.  So should we use placement markers and
indicate the second person, as we know how to do now, as a separate
sign, even though a signer may not actually make the placement marker
sign?  In hearing languages, when a speaker leaves out a word or
concept, it is often put in parenthesis in the transcription.   

For example: "My son jumped (over) the hurdle." 

It clarifies the meaning of what is said.  Could then we put a second
person location marker in parenthesis when a signer does not indicate
one but it's essential to the understanding?

Bill

Ingvild Roald wrote:

  Actually,
I do not agree with Val that the job is to write what is seen on the
video. That will not get the message of the original story across. This
is maybe one of the reasons we really need to sign languages: that the
video translation is not a full translation form English (or Greek) to
ASL, but a partial one. With the written form, we are able to bring in
the second person, not visible in the video. 

Thus, I prefer the first version, with the 'invisible' person present

Ingvild 

> From: sutton at signwriting.org

> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu

> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:20:23 -0700

> CC: josignj at aol.com

> Subject: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...

> 

> SignWriting List

> September 16, 2009

> 

> On Sep 15, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:

> > I am watching a video (if you can see the video it is the
Bible, 

> > Mark 07_31-37 at .43 on the counter). Jesus is healing a
Deaf/Mute 

> > man. -- First Jesus sticks his fingers into the mans ears and
then 

> > removes them.---- So how do I show to whom Jesus to doing
this to...

> 

> Hello Jonita and everyone -

> You are writing from an ASL videotape that Deaf Missions made of
the 

> Bible. The signer is Patrick Graybill, and he did an excellent 

> description of Jesus placing his index fingers in a Deaf man's
ears to 

> heal him...when he signed this story, Patrick did not have a real 

> person to place his index fingers into...he had to show this story
in 

> ASL, without anyone else standing in front of him...

> 

> So your job is to try to write what you see Patrick do on the
video...

> 

> Everyone sees things a little differently, but here is my writing
of 

> this position and movement, plus attached are clips from the video
of 

> Patrick...

> 

> How did I write this?

> 

> 1. First I place the shoulders and head facing the left front
corner

> 

> 2. Second, I write the hands in the sign over to the left side of
the 

> head and shoulders, like this:

> 

> 

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