invisible person in ASL storytelling...

Sandy Fleming sandy at FLEIMIN.DEMON.CO.UK
Fri Sep 18 16:10:02 UTC 2009 

Yes, it seems very strange to me to need to express _more_ in writing
than the signer himself actually said or is even physically capable of
saying!

Of course sometimes the object or person that's "invisible" in the
writing can be visible in the actual signing situation: ie, actually
present in the room so that the signer only points and doesn't actually
mention in his signing what it is.

But I would say this is no different from what happens in oral languages
when someone uses words like "this" or "that" and doesn't say what it is
he means. Then it's up to the _writer_ to do something to clarify it,
it's not part of the writing system. So you see actual speech reported
something like this:

"Hand me that, will you?" he said, pointing at the screwdriver.

Were there any examples of how this story was written in SignWriting?
This mailer talks about "inline attachments" but I can't see any!

Sandy (back online after a LONG absence!).

On Fri, 2009-09-18 at 08:30 -0700, Adam Frost wrote:
> To be honest, I think writing in the second head is too much for
> everyday writing. I couldn't even begin to read the sign. But when Val
> wrote it without and it was placed in the flow of the reading, it was
> clear to me what was happaning. It reminds me of a point in The Cat in
> the Hat where the cat is balancing items on his paws, head, and tail.
> There were no "item" symbols placed and the story still read fine. I
> feel it is the same here. Like any language, when reading it, a person
> with the language knowledge will fill in the blanks that a person
> without the same knowledge would miss. I have noticed that this use of
> classifiers is one that many non native signers have a hard time
> understanding at first. 
> 
> 
> Adam
> 
> On Sep 18, 2009, at 8:11 AM, "Bill Reese" <wreese01 at tampabay.rr.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > That's an interesting idea, Ingvild.  That seems to be a difference,
> > again, between a linguistic study and a written language.  It's a
> > topic that would definitely need to be debated - would it be an
> > additional standard, an option, or would it be too confusing when
> > interpreting a sign?  In the issue at hand, there is no second man
> > in the signing itself but there is one in the story.   So does the
> > story line become what it signed or the movement made by the story
> > teller?  How would we apply the idea to placement markers, which
> > indicate separate people within a story - would we be free to add
> > faces to each location to indicate a person?  Would this lead to
> > adding abstract symbols for other things, animate and inanimate.
> > Would sign writing become more iconic and complex because if it?
> > 
> > Obviously, if the expressive viewpoint can be written without ever
> > being actually expressed - as in a writer directly writing a story
> > without transcription of what someone else is signing - then it
> > opens up the idea of presenting everyone involved in the story - the
> > same as placement markers would do.  So should we use placement
> > markers and indicate the second person, as we know how to do now, as
> > a separate sign, even though a signer may not actually make the
> > placement marker sign?  In hearing languages, when a speaker leaves
> > out a word or concept, it is often put in parenthesis in the
> > transcription.   
> > 
> > For example: "My son jumped (over) the hurdle." 
> > 
> > It clarifies the meaning of what is said.  Could then we put a
> > second person location marker in parenthesis when a signer does not
> > indicate one but it's essential to the understanding?
> > 
> > Bill
> > 
> > 
> > Ingvild Roald wrote: 
> > > Actually, I do not agree with Val that the job is to write what is
> > > seen on the video. That will not get the message of the original
> > > story across. This is maybe one of the reasons we really need to
> > > sign languages: that the video translation is not a full
> > > translation form English (or Greek) to ASL, but a partial one.
> > > With the written form, we are able to bring in the second person,
> > > not visible in the video. 
> > > 
> > > Thus, I prefer the first version, with the 'invisible' person
> > > present
> > > 
> > > Ingvild 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > From: sutton at signwriting.org
> > > > To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
> > > > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:20:23 -0700
> > > > CC: josignj at aol.com
> > > > Subject: [sw-l] invisible person in ASL storytelling...
> > > > 
> > > > SignWriting List
> > > > September 16, 2009
> > > > 
> > > > On Sep 15, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> > > > > I am watching a video (if you can see the video it is the
> > > Bible, 
> > > > > Mark 07_31-37 at .43 on the counter). Jesus is healing a
> > > Deaf/Mute 
> > > > > man. -- First Jesus sticks his fingers into the mans ears and
> > > then 
> > > > > removes them.---- So how do I show to whom Jesus to doing this
> > > to...
> > > > 
> > > > Hello Jonita and everyone -
> > > > You are writing from an ASL videotape that Deaf Missions made of
> > > the 
> > > > Bible. The signer is Patrick Graybill, and he did an excellent 
> > > > description of Jesus placing his index fingers in a Deaf man's
> > > ears to 
> > > > heal him...when he signed this story, Patrick did not have a
> > > real 
> > > > person to place his index fingers into...he had to show this
> > > story in 
> > > > ASL, without anyone else standing in front of him...
> > > > 
> > > > So your job is to try to write what you see Patrick do on the
> > > video...
> > > > 
> > > > Everyone sees things a little differently, but here is my
> > > writing of 
> > > > this position and movement, plus attached are clips from the
> > > video of 
> > > > Patrick...
> > > > 
> > > > How did I write this?
> > > > 
> > > > 1. First I place the shoulders and head facing the left front
> > > corner
> > > > 
> > > > 2. Second, I write the hands in the sign over to the left side
> > > of the 
> > > > head and shoulders, like this:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
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