question for the way to express 'made'

Thu Jan 14 14:54:38 UTC 2010

I don't see a problem with that. I think that it is a good stepping  
stone.

Adam

On Jan 14, 2010, at 5:01 AM, "Gan  Lu" <glu at uclan.ac.uk> wrote:

> hello, adam;
>
>  I took a look of the new version of the snowman. Thanks very much  
> for that.
>
>  I can see a radical change has been made in the new version,  
> therefore I know each individual has his/her own way to express  
> feelings in Sign Language.
>
> However, as our system developement regarding this passage is now in  
> the final stage, and the system is more or less designed and is to  
> be tested. It is rather difficult for us to make changes to cope  
> with the new version, where a lot more gesture library need to be  
> build as well as some more movement classifications.
>
>  I have a suggestion, I don't know if that is appropriate. Can we  
> use the old version for our system demonstration just for now? And  
> after it successfully demonstrated, we can expand our system to  
> adopt more changes, and to copy with the new version.
>
>  How is this suggestion?
>
> Regards
> Gan
>
>>>> "Valerie Sutton" <sutton at signwriting.org> >>>
> SignWriting List
> January 13, 2010
>
> I love it, Adam!!
>
> Thank you for this video and its transcription into SignWriting...
>
>> http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=5&sid=729
>
> It gives much more of the "feeling" behind the making of snowballs...
>
> Val ;-)
>
> -----------
>
>
> On Jan 13, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Adam Frost wrote:
>
>> Here is my version of the snowman.
>>
>> http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=5&sid=729
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Gan Lu wrote:
>>
>>> Hello, Adam and others;
>>>
>>>  Sorry for keeping silent these days, as I have been keeping
>>> working on the system development. I'm currently working on the
>>> hand movement classification, where the movements can be classified
>>> into either linear or non-linear category. Also, it can then be
>>> further identified into eight directions in its plane, the floor or
>>> wall plane. I'm also trying to look at some other percific
>>> characters of a movement in a more deep way, therefore to
>>> generalise the algorithm to cover all possible hand gesutres
>>> movements.
>>>
>>> The algorithm will soon be developed, I suppose. And it will be
>>> followed by some testings, which will based on that passage we
>>> mentioned, Frosty the snow man.
>>>
>>> As we discussed before, the reason we prefere this particular
>>> passage is it is relatively simple and involves less face
>>> impression. So, Adam, if you would be able to creat a very similar
>>> ASL version of current passage that will be really appreciated.
>>> Because our system currently under construction is based on the
>>> passage posted online, and it is a naive system at this stage after
>>> all, which may be hardly to cope with too much changes. But of
>>> course, I understand the word 'made' will be changed somehow.
>>>
>>>
>>> So we look forward to your native ASL version of Frosty, Adam. And
>>> thank you very much for your effort.
>>>
>>> Gan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> "Valerie Sutton" <sutton at signwriting.org> >>>
>>> SignWriting List
>>> January 11, 2010
>>>
>>> Hello Adam!
>>> Welcome home from Jamaica. I am so looking forward to learning more
>>> about your trip, and especially the time you spent at the Caribbean
>>> Christian Centre for the Deaf in Knockpatrick. No rush, but in time,
>>> we want to hear all about it...
>>>
>>> Thank you for this message about the Frosty document, and your
>>> description of what may have been the reasons for some of the  
>>> writing
>>> in the old 1999 document...those reasons sound accurate to me. I
>>> admire Lourdes very much. Lourdes was born-Deaf in Puerto Rico, and
>>> moved to the United States later, plus when she married in the US,
>>> she
>>> had hearing children, so there were many language influences in her
>>> life...but meanwhile...Lourdes has the courage and creativity to
>>> write
>>> and do the illustrations herself, and I was so impressed and
>>> surprised
>>> when she handed me the document that I was happy to post it. You can
>>> read more about Lourdes on this web page:
>>>
>>> Lourdes Tollette
>>> http://signwriting.org/library/children/frosty/frosty17.html
>>>
>>> And we look forward to your native ASL version of Frosty too,  
>>> Adam. I
>>> will be happy to post that too, with your permission (grin ;-) ....
>>>
>>> Val ;-)
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Adam Frost wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, it looks like I was missed on the list. I missed you all as
>>>> well, although I wouldn't traded going to the Caribbean Christian
>>>> Centre for the Deaf in Knockpatrick, Jamaica and spending the time
>>>> that I did with those kids. I can't even begin to tell you the
>>>> enjoyment that I had there. Of course that is for another time. :-)
>>>>
>>>> The question of Lourdes' choice of spelling out MADE is one of the
>>>> main reasons I asked if I could do a re-rendering of that part. I
>>>> haven't been able to get settled enough to record it, but I will  
>>>> get
>>>> to it. One thing I can assure you is that the spelling of MADE or
>>>> even the sign for MAKE will not be in there. I don't know if anyone
>>>> has ever heard this one, but I have used it a lot when in an ASL
>>>> class. "Show it; don't tell it." That is precisely how I will  
>>>> convey
>>>> the concept in my rendering.
>>>>
>>>> Now, since I am not Lourdes and I can't read minds all too well
>>>> (although I have been accused of having that ability), I suspect
>>>> that she spelled out made because she was trying to do a very close
>>>> translation of the story rather than "unwrapping the story of all
>>>> English wrapping and rewrapping it with ASL leaving only the  
>>>> diamond
>>>> of the story" as my translation teacher would tell me. He also said
>>>> that while Deaf people are more apt to being bilingual, the skill  
>>>> of
>>>> translating is almost never taught leaving Deaf people very few
>>>> tools to use when asked to translate a story. This is also my guess
>>>> why very few facial expressions were used since English isn't an
>>>> "animated" language like ASL. Also realizing the time when Lourdes
>>>> wrote that translation, most Deaf people felt (and some still do
>>>> today) that ASL is inferior to English.
>>>>
>>>> Just thought that I'd give a preliminary for those that have been
>>>> waiting for so long for the day of my return. ;-D
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 7, 2010, at 9:21 AM, SignWriting wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>> January 7, 2009
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Gan, Charles and Shane -
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, Shane is right. There is definitely a way to do all
>>>>> modifications of verbs in sign languages, but the grammar  
>>>>> structure
>>>>> is different than in spoken languages. In ASL they oftentimes will
>>>>> combine the sign for MAKE or CREATE, that Charles showed you, with
>>>>> the sign for FINISH, that gives the verb the past tense...however,
>>>>> we need to wait for Adam Frost to come back from his trip, since  
>>>>> he
>>>>> is a native ASL signer and he can explain it better than I can...
>>>>>
>>>>> And Gan, the reason that Lourdes fingerspelled the sign for MADE  
>>>>> is
>>>>> not known to us...When we publish a Deaf person's writing, we try
>>>>> not to change their signing style, but instead just try to assist
>>>>> with the way the signs are written in SignWriting...but the actual
>>>>> choice of fingerspelling versus using the past tense for MAKE was
>>>>> Lourdes' choice...and we cannot get in touch with Lourdes right
>>>>> now...so if you want to wait until Adam comes home...he can do his
>>>>> own version of Frosty and then you will have the author to ask...
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, from your software perspective, it needs to be able to
>>>>> capture and write fingerspelling and facial expressions, if you
>>>>> want the software to really be used by the ASL community, because
>>>>> ASL is one of those sign languages that uses a great deal of
>>>>> fingerspelling and all sign languages use facial expressions...
>>>>>
>>>>> ASL uses a lot of fingerspelling for scientific terms that do not
>>>>> have signs yet, and sometimes the fingerspelling becomes a sign in
>>>>> its own right, by blending together to form an unsual group of
>>>>> finger movements, so your software needs to get used to  
>>>>> recognizing
>>>>> fingerspelling...at least ASL has one-handed fingerspelling that
>>>>> might be easier for your software than the two-handed
>>>>> fingerspelling used in the UK...
>>>>>
>>>>> Those are my thoughts. Adam will be back on January 11th...
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck with your software - we look forward to using it
>>>>> someday -
>>>>>
>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Shane Gilchrist wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Gan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we dont really have past tenses in the same sense as the English
>>>>>> language - for instance, in BSL (using glosses - sorry!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I made food:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - FOOD COOK^nodding
>>>>>> - FOOD COOK PAST
>>>>>> - FOOD COOK FINISHED!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> non-manual features are very important here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Shane
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2010/1/6 Gan  Lu <glu at uclan.ac.uk>:
>>>>>>> Hi Charles;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the comment. So do you reckon the past tense is
>>>>>>> necessary here? And if we use "create". should it be 'Created'
>>>>>>> then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Gan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Charles Butler" <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> 06/01/10 1:54 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmm.  In context the sign, I would think would be either "make"
>>>>>>> or "create".  The tense is carried by the situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> create
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Gan Lu <glu at uclan.ac.uk>
>>>>>>> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 8:05:15 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Adam and Valerie;
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm implementing the system now. While I have a question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> why can't we use an ASL gesture to express the meaning of
>>>>>>> 'made' on the first page of the 'Frosty the Snow Man', other  
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> using the FingerSpellings to sign these four letters
>>>>>>> respectively?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the reason is because the word 'made' is a past
>>>>>>> tense, and there is no ASL for it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The reason I'm asking is my intention is to implement the first
>>>>>>> page as a 4-by-4 output pattern, which are 16 sign-boxes in  
>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>> includes those punctuations. So I'm looking for a way to squeeze
>>>>>>> the word 'made' into a box.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Gan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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