question for the way to express 'made'

Gan Lu glu at UCLAN.AC.UK
Thu Jan 14 13:01:18 UTC 2010


hello, adam;

  I took a look of the new version of the snowman. Thanks very much for that.

  I can see a radical change has been made in the new version, therefore I know each individual has his/her own way to express feelings in Sign Language. 

 However, as our system developement regarding this passage is now in the final stage, and the system is more or less designed and is to be tested. It is rather difficult for us to make changes to cope with the new version, where a lot more gesture library need to be build as well as some more movement classifications. 
  
  I have a suggestion, I don't know if that is appropriate. Can we use the old version for our system demonstration just for now? And after it successfully demonstrated, we can expand our system to adopt more changes, and to copy with the new version. 

  How is this suggestion?

Regards
Gan

>>> "Valerie Sutton" <sutton at signwriting.org> >>>
SignWriting List
January 13, 2010

I love it, Adam!!

Thank you for this video and its transcription into SignWriting...

> http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=5&sid=729

It gives much more of the "feeling" behind the making of snowballs...

Val ;-)

-----------


On Jan 13, 2010, at 5:37 PM, Adam Frost wrote:

> Here is my version of the snowman.
>
> http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/canvas.php?ui=1&sgn=5&sid=729
>
> Adam
>
> On Jan 13, 2010, at 2:56 PM, Gan Lu wrote:
>
>> Hello, Adam and others;
>>
>>   Sorry for keeping silent these days, as I have been keeping  
>> working on the system development. I'm currently working on the  
>> hand movement classification, where the movements can be classified  
>> into either linear or non-linear category. Also, it can then be  
>> further identified into eight directions in its plane, the floor or  
>> wall plane. I'm also trying to look at some other percific  
>> characters of a movement in a more deep way, therefore to  
>> generalise the algorithm to cover all possible hand gesutres  
>> movements.
>>
>>  The algorithm will soon be developed, I suppose. And it will be  
>> followed by some testings, which will based on that passage we  
>> mentioned, Frosty the snow man.
>>
>>  As we discussed before, the reason we prefere this particular  
>> passage is it is relatively simple and involves less face  
>> impression. So, Adam, if you would be able to creat a very similar  
>> ASL version of current passage that will be really appreciated.   
>> Because our system currently under construction is based on the  
>> passage posted online, and it is a naive system at this stage after  
>> all, which may be hardly to cope with too much changes. But of  
>> course, I understand the word 'made' will be changed somehow.
>>
>>
>> So we look forward to your native ASL version of Frosty, Adam. And  
>> thank you very much for your effort.
>>
>> Gan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> "Valerie Sutton" <sutton at signwriting.org> >>>
>> SignWriting List
>> January 11, 2010
>>
>> Hello Adam!
>> Welcome home from Jamaica. I am so looking forward to learning more
>> about your trip, and especially the time you spent at the Caribbean
>> Christian Centre for the Deaf in Knockpatrick. No rush, but in time,
>> we want to hear all about it...
>>
>> Thank you for this message about the Frosty document, and your
>> description of what may have been the reasons for some of the writing
>> in the old 1999 document...those reasons sound accurate to me. I
>> admire Lourdes very much. Lourdes was born-Deaf in Puerto Rico, and
>> moved to the United States later, plus when she married in the US,  
>> she
>> had hearing children, so there were many language influences in her
>> life...but meanwhile...Lourdes has the courage and creativity to  
>> write
>> and do the illustrations herself, and I was so impressed and  
>> surprised
>> when she handed me the document that I was happy to post it. You can
>> read more about Lourdes on this web page:
>>
>> Lourdes Tollette
>> http://signwriting.org/library/children/frosty/frosty17.html
>>
>> And we look forward to your native ASL version of Frosty too, Adam. I
>> will be happy to post that too, with your permission (grin ;-) ....
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:19 PM, Adam Frost wrote:
>>
>>> Well, it looks like I was missed on the list. I missed you all as
>>> well, although I wouldn't traded going to the Caribbean Christian
>>> Centre for the Deaf in Knockpatrick, Jamaica and spending the time
>>> that I did with those kids. I can't even begin to tell you the
>>> enjoyment that I had there. Of course that is for another time. :-)
>>>
>>> The question of Lourdes' choice of spelling out MADE is one of the
>>> main reasons I asked if I could do a re-rendering of that part. I
>>> haven't been able to get settled enough to record it, but I will get
>>> to it. One thing I can assure you is that the spelling of MADE or
>>> even the sign for MAKE will not be in there. I don't know if anyone
>>> has ever heard this one, but I have used it a lot when in an ASL
>>> class. "Show it; don't tell it." That is precisely how I will convey
>>> the concept in my rendering.
>>>
>>> Now, since I am not Lourdes and I can't read minds all too well
>>> (although I have been accused of having that ability), I suspect
>>> that she spelled out made because she was trying to do a very close
>>> translation of the story rather than "unwrapping the story of all
>>> English wrapping and rewrapping it with ASL leaving only the diamond
>>> of the story" as my translation teacher would tell me. He also said
>>> that while Deaf people are more apt to being bilingual, the skill of
>>> translating is almost never taught leaving Deaf people very few
>>> tools to use when asked to translate a story. This is also my guess
>>> why very few facial expressions were used since English isn't an
>>> "animated" language like ASL. Also realizing the time when Lourdes
>>> wrote that translation, most Deaf people felt (and some still do
>>> today) that ASL is inferior to English.
>>>
>>> Just thought that I'd give a preliminary for those that have been
>>> waiting for so long for the day of my return. ;-D
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Jan 7, 2010, at 9:21 AM, SignWriting wrote:
>>>
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> January 7, 2009
>>>>
>>>> Hello Gan, Charles and Shane -
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Shane is right. There is definitely a way to do all
>>>> modifications of verbs in sign languages, but the grammar structure
>>>> is different than in spoken languages. In ASL they oftentimes will
>>>> combine the sign for MAKE or CREATE, that Charles showed you, with
>>>> the sign for FINISH, that gives the verb the past tense...however,
>>>> we need to wait for Adam Frost to come back from his trip, since he
>>>> is a native ASL signer and he can explain it better than I can...
>>>>
>>>> And Gan, the reason that Lourdes fingerspelled the sign for MADE is
>>>> not known to us...When we publish a Deaf person's writing, we try
>>>> not to change their signing style, but instead just try to assist
>>>> with the way the signs are written in SignWriting...but the actual
>>>> choice of fingerspelling versus using the past tense for MAKE was
>>>> Lourdes' choice...and we cannot get in touch with Lourdes right
>>>> now...so if you want to wait until Adam comes home...he can do his
>>>> own version of Frosty and then you will have the author to ask...
>>>>
>>>> Meanwhile, from your software perspective, it needs to be able to
>>>> capture and write fingerspelling and facial expressions, if you
>>>> want the software to really be used by the ASL community, because
>>>> ASL is one of those sign languages that uses a great deal of
>>>> fingerspelling and all sign languages use facial expressions...
>>>>
>>>> ASL uses a lot of fingerspelling for scientific terms that do not
>>>> have signs yet, and sometimes the fingerspelling becomes a sign in
>>>> its own right, by blending together to form an unsual group of
>>>> finger movements, so your software needs to get used to recognizing
>>>> fingerspelling...at least ASL has one-handed fingerspelling that
>>>> might be easier for your software than the two-handed
>>>> fingerspelling used in the UK...
>>>>
>>>> Those are my thoughts. Adam will be back on January 11th...
>>>>
>>>> Good luck with your software - we look forward to using it  
>>>> someday -
>>>>
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>> -----------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 7, 2010, at 9:05 AM, Shane Gilchrist wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Gan,
>>>>>
>>>>> we dont really have past tenses in the same sense as the English
>>>>> language - for instance, in BSL (using glosses - sorry!)
>>>>>
>>>>> I made food:
>>>>>
>>>>> - FOOD COOK^nodding
>>>>> - FOOD COOK PAST
>>>>> - FOOD COOK FINISHED!
>>>>>
>>>>> non-manual features are very important here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Shane
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2010/1/6 Gan  Lu <glu at uclan.ac.uk>:
>>>>>> Hi Charles;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the comment. So do you reckon the past tense is
>>>>>> necessary here? And if we use "create". should it be 'Created'
>>>>>> then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Gan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Charles Butler" <chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com> 06/01/10 1:54 PM  
>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> Hmm.  In context the sign, I would think would be either "make"
>>>>>> or "create".  The tense is carried by the situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> create
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Gan Lu <glu at uclan.ac.uk>
>>>>>> To: sw-l at majordomo.valenciacc.edu
>>>>>> Sent: Wed, January 6, 2010 8:05:15 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [sw-l] question for the way to express 'made'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Adam and Valerie;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm implementing the system now. While I have a question:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  why can't we use an ASL gesture to express the meaning of
>>>>>> 'made' on the first page of the 'Frosty the Snow Man', other than
>>>>>> using the FingerSpellings to sign these four letters  
>>>>>> respectively?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I suppose the reason is because the word 'made' is a past
>>>>>> tense, and there is no ASL for it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The reason I'm asking is my intention is to implement the first
>>>>>> page as a 4-by-4 output pattern, which are 16 sign-boxes in total
>>>>>> includes those punctuations. So I'm looking for a way to squeeze
>>>>>> the word 'made' into a box.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Gan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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