Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift

Mon Oct 17 11:36:52 UTC 2011

I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the closest that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show grammatical differences and word/concept order on the same line or within visual distance to help Deaf people read in their own language and compare it to a spoken language rendering of the same concepts. 
I would not want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing a facial expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, but I don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may as well be using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least reduces the number of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 faces.
I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, not whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation of a face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be perfect, but I look at it and think -- how can a child possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal pairs, what is the absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which for the Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer facial markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift is created to be articulated by computer, as all these programs are, but what of someone somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a computer. If an EMP pulse comes along, all the programming in the world will not survive but a pencil and paper will still function.
Charles 

Charles Butler

chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com

240-764-5748

Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM> wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM

Hi Ingvild,  

in order to understand
the difference between Mundbildschrift – a tool to support articulation and
listening-training -  and Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift  (what you might
write in Signwriting in order to present information coming from the lips and
tongue) you may download this file.  

http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20GebaerdenSchrift.pdf 

Stefan ;-)  

Von: SignWriting
List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
11:58

An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

Betreff: Re: AW: Please help us
test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! 

I agree, the Mundbildschrift and
the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not the same - but very useful.

The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly
only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise
similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth. Whith the latin
letters the connection to the Norwegian word is stressed, but letters are not
really part of SignWriting

I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later this week
in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am recomending the use
of SignWriting as part of making deaf children literate

Ingvild  

Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:46:32
+0200

From: stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM

Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 

Hi Ingvild and friends,  

it is interesting to
understand that you agree with my concept that it is necessary to add
information coming from the lips- and tongue movements in order to “understand”
the exact meaning of a given sign.  

“....Signs that are the same in the hands and other
movements, differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL
claims to have no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but
have different meaning) because of this....”  

Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same
as my set of “Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift”  

Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica
Hoffmann with my students we found out that it is not correct simply to add the
letters of a word (spoken language) next to the sign in order to avoid
“Mundbilder” 

To my very surprise I had to understand – and this
has been such an amazing experience – that even little deaf children having no
idea of how to write the spoken word – show almost mouth – and tongue movement
patterns that almost look like the same – as a “informed” signer would perform.

Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game
trying to understand from lip-reading.  From my actual point of view these
Mundbilder which I defined to stand for special patterns of movements that
might result in specific sounds of a given spoken language come pretty close to
the best representation of what can be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person.  

And you are right – SignPuddle – so far does not
allow to type latin letters – as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get
the chance to look at the German new softare Delegs?  

Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost
loke in the good old SWDOS –program.  

In addition to that you are able to change the
preferred sign alternative in every document without any problem. You can copy
this specific sign and paste it with this same variation. You can write the
best translation of the signwriting  sentence beneath this line and hide
or show one or both lines! This is the perfect tool to support deaf students to
improve their spoken language skills. Just look at the attached gif. 

Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our
vision of an almost perfect SignWriting – software program to support this idea
which is the motto of our Editor: “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit
GebaerdenSchrift"  = learn German assisted by SignWriting". 

All you need is a well fed dictionary and this
wonderful program.  

All the best  

Stefan  

Von:
SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im
Auftrag von Ingvild Roald

Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011
11:15

An:
SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

Betreff: Re: Please help us test
SignWriter Studio Beta 5!! 

?

I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
SignPuddle, can I?

On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,

Ingvild  

Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06 -0700

From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG

Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

SignWriting List 

October 16, 2011 

Hi Ingvild and Charles! 

Two thoughts... 

First, SignWriter DOS is not past tense - it is not in the
past. I am using it right now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and
install it: 

DOSBOX 

http://www.dosbox.com/ 

Second, software like SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6,
actually has little to do with how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth
movements in any style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is not a theory
of writing - so there are no limits to your writing styles when it comes to
Mouth Movements in either software program... 

The only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a
smaller symbolset (sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but
other than that there are no limitations on your writing styles no matter which
software program you choose - 

I think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed
writing the old way - and that is fine because you can continue to write the old
way! 

smile - 

We are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have
you notice?I am so happy about it! 

SignPuddle for Norway 

http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO 

There are close to 3000 signs now in the dictionary and the
literature puddle is growing too - we may need to move some of the individual
signs from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will do that
work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am
happy to build a sign language corpus in SignPuddle Online for all countries - 

Val ;-) 

--------- 

On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote: 

Another good thing about the DOS-program
was the possibility to write the mouthed 'words' near the mouth, rather than
using the later invention of Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages that
use a lot of mouthing in the signs. Norwegian SL uses mouthing a lot,
especially for nouns. Signs that are the same in the hands and other movements,
differ in the mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have
no homonyms (two or more signs that look exatly the same but have different
meaning) because of this.

Ingvild  

Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:03:24
-0700

From: chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM

Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 

  Part of it is to understand that many educational
  systems use Sign Writing to show the grammar comparing a local sign language
  to the local spoken language.  

  The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the
  spoken language, the signed language, and fingerspelling so that one can
  compare gramatically, very similar to the current German system.  

  Thank you for your attention. Charles 

  Charles Butler

  chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com

  240-764-5748

  Clear writing moves business forward.

  --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA> wrote: 

  From: Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>

  Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

  To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

  Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM 

  Hi Charles,

      I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you
  are talking about.   I see you can type right over a sign if you
  want to, below, above and if you type a long sentence the other signs move
  over.  Is it important for you that the be place on top of the signs too? 
  Or is it more important for you to be able to write some text, then some
  signs, then some text, etc?

      Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter
  Dos I may have gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully.  With
  SignWriter Studio some things may be similar but none are identical. 
  Right now I am trying to get the three main parts of the program working, the
  dictionary ( I will soon have a preview version available), the signlist (for
  printing lists of signs from the dictionary) and the document.   Once
  I get everything working again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a new
  database, I am interested in implement a keyboard like SignWriter DOS. 
  But first things first.

      The document isn't functional right now.  Also it
  only deals with vertical columns of writing for the time being.  It can
  have text above the sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps onto more
  lines.  At present there isn't any way of writing just text without a
  sign but it shouldn't be too hard to implement.   The editing of
  the signs is done in a popup box instead of directly in the document like
  SignWriter DOS.  A lot of thought has been put into it to use the
  keyboard but it may need a few more adjustments yet.

  Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.

  Jonathan

  On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote: 

    Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS on
    a modern system.

    In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign writing.
    Clunky, but effective.

    You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.

    It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble a sign
    by typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the current encoding
    of the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of graphemes and coding equivalents.

    None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual interleaved
    Spoken Language and Signed Language.  I
    can clip a sign and put it in here

     , in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I feel
    like we are continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can type or
    easily assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign language with a
    spoken language. IF Chinese can do it, I am disappointed in every Sign
    Writing compiler on the market that can't interleave. 

    Charles Butler

    This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and all other
    programs do not do that. 

    Charles Butler

    chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com

    240-764-5748

    Clear writing moves business forward. 

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    email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca

             joyoduncan at gmail.com

    Cel: 9983-1204

    Tel: 2213-5285

    Skype: yojoduncan

    SignWriter
    Studio 

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  Cel: 9983-1204

  Tel: 2213-5285

  Skype: yojoduncan

  SignWriter Studio 

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