AW: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift

Mon Oct 17 18:07:06 UTC 2011

Hi Charles, Ingvild, Valerie, Bill ... 
first of all - what an interesting discussion. Thanks for that! 

I learn from your comments that it is difficult to explain. I tried my best
but perhaps my English is not good enough. Erika Hoffmann should be able to
explain it better than I can. She spent some time in my classes. We had been
so tremdously successful to investigate about Mundbilder. Erika was present
when I asked my students to write by hand at the blackboard ... 

The two systems look very similar but should not get mixed. Perhaps this may
cause confusion. 

What do you want me to do? You think it is difficult to write English words
"red" and "green" in Mundbildschrift in order to practice articulation? No -
it is easy and in fact for this case I had to invent a special symbol to
indicate this special "r" which is not to be found in German Spoken
language. 

You think it is difficult to write Mundbilder for the signs "red" and
"green" ? Well perhaps this is not neccessary if there are no other signs
that can be misunderstood as "red" and "green" 

You are right - my invention "Mundbildschrift" is meant to support deaf
students to improve articulation and to expand their vocabulary in spoken
language. So this has almost nothing to do with Sign Language and
SignWriting. 

Apart from that I defined "Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift" which cover
that part of information a deaf signer would perform while comunicating in
Sign Language. 

Perhaps it is hard to believe for an ASL - signer but the way Ingvild
explained  it is absolut correct. German Sign Language (DGS) includes quite
a bit of this kind of information coming from your lips and and tongue as if
pronouncing at least a part of a German word. 

These informations are crucial in order to read SW-documents for DGS
fluently and to understand the idea behind it. So this is not a cued speech
or what ever hearing oriented system. This is important to understand. 

All the best 

Stefan ;-) 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 15:41
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift

Here is a challenge for you,  

When I think of the shape of the mouth for the English words "red" and
"green" I would be at a loss to show how that could be articulated with
anything other than cued speech. The articulations on the face are precisely
the same. 

Their ASL signs are completely different, but a face model would not help
unless it is a different kind of signal than a face. 

That is the linguistic model of the two words. The G cannot be seen on the
face, as a velar consonant it is simply not seen, and the D and the N are
articulated in the same place on the visible tongue. 

Cued speech, which indicates velar positions as well as lips and tongue,
divides those out, and it has been used with spectacular success in
English-language based classes in the U.S. to show writing English based on
the spoken word. 

I am not an expert in cued speech, I write ASL in SW with what knowledge I
have, which is not highly detailed in terms of anything other than the P, F,
and M articulations which appear in ASL not as indicators of English words
but as articulators within ASL itself, not based on English, such as the PAH
of success (with a P articulator and a breath), and the MMM of agreement. 

What your system is used for is "visible German" which is a good thing of
itself, but I have seen SW as a writing system for a language in and of
itself, a conceptual language with its own grammar, so that the DELEGS
system would need to be augmented at a separate level to show English and
ASL compared for "production" reasons, in which case I would put the
Gebaerdenschrift with the English not with the ASL. It's a cued system to
show how German appears on the mouth, and I use the facial expressions to
show how ASL appears on the mouth when it accompanies ASL, not as an
augmenter to writing English.

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: AW: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 9:07 AM

Hi Charles, Ingvild, Valerie ... 

“how can a child possibly write that on a board with a piece of chalk and
say "o this is simple".

It is exactly like this!  Just contrary – if you ask a deaf student to
translate a given document presenting a transcription of signed German or so
much harder of DGS  he/she is begging  I should add more and more Mundbilder
in order to reduce the guessing game to a minimum! 

I can understand that you feel confused looking a a row of perhaps up to ten
facial circles with given mouth-symbols – which I defined to represent the
impression as if speaking German ... 

Once people catch the idea that there is a way to transcribe “Speech” in
this defined way there is no confusion anymore.

All the best 

Stefan 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 13:37
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift

I guess people are misunderstanding what I'm saying, DELEGS is the closest
that I have seen to a DOS program that allowed people to show grammatical
differences and word/concept order on the same line or within visual
distance to help Deaf people read in their own language and compare it to a
spoken language rendering of the same concepts. 

I would not want to show a Roman letter within a sign, I'd be showing a
facial expression probably quite similar to the Gebarendenschrift, but I
don't even know understand why so MANY faces compressed. One may as well be
using Cued Speech as one's augmentation, which at least reduces the number
of faces to a handful not a line of up to 10 faces.

I'm sorry, when I see a row of faces it confuses me, I think signs, not
whole clusters of faces. It may show every nuance of the articulation of a
face and for showing that to help with lipreading, it may be perfect, but I
look at it and think -- how can a child possibly write that on a board with
a piece of chalk and say "o this is simple". I guess I'm looking for minimal
pairs, what is the absolute minimum necessary to show an articulation, which
for the Deaf in the US was to strip the body away and show much fewer facial
markers than hearing users expected. The Gebaredenschrift is created to be
articulated by computer, as all these programs are, but what of someone
somewhere with only paper and pencil, not a computer. If an EMP pulse comes
along, all the programming in the world will not survive but a pencil and
paper will still function.

Charles

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Mon, 10/17/11, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
wrote:

From: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
Subject: Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 6:49 AM

Hi Ingvild, 

in order to understand the difference between Mundbildschrift – a tool to
support articulation and listening-training -  and Mundbilder in der
GebaerdenSchrift  (what you might write in Signwriting in order to present
information coming from the lips and tongue) you may download this file. 

http://www.gebaerden.de/files/3187/upload/pdf_new/Mundbilder%20in%20der%20Ge
baerdenSchrift.pdf

Stefan ;-) 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:58
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

I agree, the Mundbildschrift and the Mundbilder the Gebäredenschrift are not
the same - but very useful.

The writing of 'words' beside the mouth was / is just a lazy (and formerly
only) way of writing the different mouthing of signs that are otherwise
similar. With Mundbildschrift this can be done directly - so I do not really
miss this oprtunity to write the latin letters near the mouth. Whith the
latin letters the connection to the Norwegian word is stressed, but letters
are not really part of SignWriting

I have looked at DELEGS - and I am refering to it in my lecture later this
week in the Netherlands - as I am to your Mundbildschrift - I am recomending
the use of SignWriting as part of making deaf children literate

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:46:32 +0200
From: stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM
Subject: AW: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

Hi Ingvild and friends, 

it is interesting to understand that you agree with my concept that it is
necessary to add information coming from the lips- and tongue movements in
order to “understand” the exact meaning of a given sign. 

“....Signs that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the
mouthing and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms
(two or more signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning)
because of this....” 

Well my invention of Mundbildschrift is not the same as my set of
“Mundbilder in der GebaerdenSchrift” 

Nevertheless – thanks to the studies of Erica Hoffmann with my students we
found out that it is not correct simply to add the letters of a word (spoken
language) next to the sign in order to avoid “Mundbilder”

To my very surprise I had to understand – and this has been such an amazing
experience – that even little deaf children having no idea of how to write
the spoken word – show almost mouth – and tongue movement patterns that
almost look like the same – as a “informed” signer would perform. 

Mouth movements are part of the usual guessing game trying to understand
from lip-reading.  From my actual point of view these Mundbilder which I
defined to stand for special patterns of movements that might result in
specific sounds of a given spoken language come pretty close to the best
representation of what can be seen (!!!) looking at a signing person. 

And you are right – SignPuddle – so far does not allow to type latin letters
– as you could do with the DOS Program. Did you get the chance to look at
the German new softare Delegs? 

Now you get the chance to look for your signs almost loke in the good old
SWDOS –program. 

In addition to that you are able to change the preferred sign alternative in
every document without any problem. You can copy this specific sign and
paste it with this same variation. You can write the best translation of the
signwriting  sentence beneath this line and hide or show one or both lines!
This is the perfect tool to support deaf students to improve their spoken
language skills. Just look at the attached gif.

Our team is still busy, busy, busy to complete our vision of an almost
perfect SignWriting – software program to support this idea which is the
motto of our Editor: “Delegs” = Deutsch lernen mit GebaerdenSchrift"  =
learn German assisted by SignWriting".

All you need is a well fed dictionary and this wonderful program. 

All the best 

Stefan 

  _____  

Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages
[mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Ingvild Roald
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Oktober 2011 11:15
An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Betreff: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!

?

I don't think I can write a 'word' in latin letters beside a mouth in
SignPuddle, can I?

On the other hand, I DO love the newer software,

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:11:06 -0700
From: sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

SignWriting List

October 16, 2011

Hi Ingvild and Charles!

Two thoughts...

First, SignWriter DOS is not past tense - it is not in the past. I am using
it right now, and so can anyone. Just download DOSBOX and install it:

DOSBOX

http://www.dosbox.com/

Second, software like SignWriter DOS and SignPuddle 1.6, actually has little
to do with how you write. You can write the Norwegian mouth movements in any
style you choose in SignPuddle 1.6 too - software is not a theory of writing
- so there are no limits to your writing styles when it comes to Mouth
Movements in either software program...

The only limits to SignWriter DOS usage is that it uses a smaller symbolset
(sss1995) and it cannot write down in vertical columns - but other than that
there are no limitations on your writing styles no matter which software
program you choose -

I think what you really are saying is that you enjoyed writing the old way -
and that is fine because you can continue to write the old way!

smile -

We are adding a lot of Norwegian signs and documents - have you notice?I am
so happy about it!

SignPuddle for Norway

http://www.signbank.org/signpuddle/index.html#sgn-NO

There are close to 3000 signs now in the dictionary and the literature
puddle is growing too - we may need to move some of the individual signs
from the literature puddle to the dictionary puddle, but we will do that
work later - Thank you for all your old SignWriter DOS files, Ingvild! I am
happy to build a sign language corpus in SignPuddle Online for all countries
-

Val ;-)

---------

On Oct 16, 2011, at 5:36 AM, Ingvild Roald wrote:

Another good thing about the DOS-program was the possibility to write the
mouthed 'words' near the mouth, rather than using the later invention of
Mundbildschrift', for those signed languages that use a lot of mouthing in
the signs. Norwegian SL uses mouthing a lot, especially for nouns. Signs
that are the same in the hands and other movements, differ in the mouthing
and make distinctive signs that way. NSL claims to have no homonyms (two or
more signs that look exatly the same but have different meaning) because of
this.

Ingvild 

  _____  

Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 19:03:24 -0700
From: chazzer3332000 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

Part of it is to understand that many educational systems use Sign Writing
to show the grammar comparing a local sign language to the local spoken
language. 

The useful thing about SW Dos is that one can use the spoken language, the
signed language, and fingerspelling so that one can compare gramatically,
very similar to the current German system. 

Thank you for your attention. Charles

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

--- On Thu, 10/13/11, Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA> wrote:

From: Jonathan <duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Please help us test SignWriter Studio Beta 5!!
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 11:09 AM

Hi Charles,
    I just tried out SignWriter DOS to see exactly what you are talking
about.   I see you can type right over a sign if you want to, below, above
and if you type a long sentence the other signs move over.  Is it important
for you that the be place on top of the signs too?  Or is it more important
for you to be able to write some text, then some signs, then some text, etc?
    Had I realized that so many just LOVE the old SignWriter Dos I may have
gotten permission to duplicate it very faithfully.  With SignWriter Studio
some things may be similar but none are identical.  Right now I am trying to
get the three main parts of the program working, the dictionary ( I will
soon have a preview version available), the signlist (for printing lists of
signs from the dictionary) and the document.   Once I get everything working
again after changing to ISWA 2010 and a new database, I am interested in
implement a keyboard like SignWriter DOS.  But first things first.
    The document isn't functional right now.  Also it only deals with
vertical columns of writing for the time being.  It can have text above the
sign up to the width of the sign, then it wraps onto more lines.  At present
there isn't any way of writing just text without a sign but it shouldn't be
too hard to implement.   The editing of the signs is done in a popup box
instead of directly in the document like SignWriter DOS.  A lot of thought
has been put into it to use the keyboard but it may need a few more
adjustments yet.

Thank you for sharing this important feature with me and list.

Jonathan

On 10/10/2011 9:48 AM, Charles Butler wrote:

Jonathan, What I really want is SignWriter DOS on a modern system.

In that program you could interleave written alphabets and sign writing.
Clunky, but effective.

You could clip signs from a narrative and put them somewhere else.

It was a true typing system for signing so that you could assemble a sign by
typing on a keyboard not a mouse. Yes, I know that the current encoding of
the ISWA is dependent upon a linking of graphemes and coding equivalents.

None of the Studios or other efforts have gone back to actual interleaved
Spoken Language and Signed Language.  I can clip a sign and put it in here

<http://www.signbank.org/SignPuddle1.5/glyphogram.php?ksw=AS15a30S15a30S2ea3
aS2ea4eS2fb04M30x28S15a30n24xn28S15a309xn28S2ea3a5x3S2ea4en30x3S2fb04n6x22>
, in TEXT, when does THAT come back in a program. I feel like we are
continuing to take a great leap backward. Until one can type or easily
assemble, one can't' send email that is in sign language with a spoken
language. IF Chinese can do it, I am disappointed in every Sign Writing
compiler on the market that can't interleave. 

Charles Butler

This is an email program and I can do that, but the SW studio and all other
programs do not do that. 

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com <http://mc/compose?to=chazzer3332000%40yahoo.com> 
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

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         joyoduncan at gmail.com
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<http://mc/compose?to=duncanjonathan%40yahoo.ca> 
         joyoduncan at gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=joyoduncan%40gmail.com> 
Cel: 9983-1204
Tel: 2213-5285
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter  <http://www.signwriterstudio.com/> Studio

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