AW: Clown hand orientation.

Tue Sep 13 17:54:10 UTC 2011

SignWriting List
September 13, 2011

Hello Stefan, Charles, Adam, Bill and everyone -
Thank you for your messages. Please do not think that my lack of response is because I do not have answers or do not want to answer - It is not that at all. I am meeting with a nurse for my mother's care right now, and then I have five book orders and I know people are waiting patiently for me, so I must take care of my responsibilities first, and then I will enjoy the discussions...

I agree with you that Bill's writing is perfect - it is perfect for me too!! ;-)

And there is nothing wrong with the Parkhurst Rule of Thumb rule either - I like it, if it had more flexibility -

Just as long as you all understand that the DAC and I were writing differently before the Parkhurst rule was developed by others in Spain....and out of courtesy to all the Deaf adults I worked with in the USA, in the 1980s and 1990s, and out of courtesy right now, with DAC member Adam Frost, who lives with me three months out of every year... I feel their way of writing also deserves to be documented - it is unfair to discount their way of writing, when it exists and is used everyday...

So let us enjoy the conversations without emotion - we all are free to write as we wish - including the DAC - and me ;-)

So BIll, your writing is perfect, and Stefan - your question is a great one - and fun to discuss later - and Charles - the reading of the sign for CLOWN that I wrote, based on the old DAC dictionary is quite simple - I will explain later -

I have to go now, so sorry -

I hope to be online tomorrow if possible -

You are welcome to discuss this without me of course - I always enjoy reading the discussions if they are calm ones -

Val ;-)

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On Sep 13, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Stefan Wöhrmann wrote:

> Hi Val, Adam, Charles, Bill ... friends of the sw-list,
>  
> It is interesting to learn that there must be something about these thumb-hand-hand shapes that seems to allow people to see it from different point of views.
>  
> Obviously Adam and Val see the hand in a way that Charles and me cannot understand. How hard I try I cannot follow your explanations.
>  
> Nevertheless I would  love to understand the way you look at it.
> One way may be to offer a symbol next to the foto –
>  
> I prepared such a graphic.
>  
> In order to show the hand orientation in your writing Bill – which is perfect from my point of view (showing the   r i g h t   three fingers claw hand to the left – as if holding a red nose of the clown)
> I took this foto.
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>  
> I think it is not that much of importance for this discussion how far the hand is pointing to the right  (20°  or 45° -- the r i g h t  hand  would show the thumb on the right side -- ;-)))
>  
> In this case Valerie there is no extra rule necessary – what do you think?
>  
> Stefan ;-)
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> Von: SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] Im Auftrag von Charles Butler
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. September 2011 03:03
> An: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Betreff: Re: Clown hand orientation.
>  
> I'd put the hand 90 degrees with the 2nd and third fingers on opposite sides of the nose. It's not a pinch, it's holding a red clown nose. 
>  
> Charles
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 9/12/11, Bill Reese <wreese01 at TAMPABAY.RR.COM> wrote:
> 
> From: Bill Reese <wreese01 at TAMPABAY.RR.COM>
> Subject: Re: AW: NEW: Clown correction
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Date: Monday, September 12, 2011, 6:22 PM
> 
> So if I should write it like this:
> 
> it would be wrong one way and right another?  Looks like I would be saying "peuw" rather than "clown" anyways.  lol
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> On 9/12/2011 4:45 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> SignWriting List
> September 12, 2011
>  
> Hi Charles -
> Thanks for this message!
>  
> The word intuitive is used in different ways - no one says the thumbs match - of course they don't!
>  
> But it is intuitive for us in other ways - we like placing the right hand on the right side of the body, because for us, it goes back to the old stick figure - before we used to write the arm lines attached to these hand symbols and they still do in Denmark and sometimes in schools, and since the right arm is on the right side of the body, it feels best to me anyway, to have the right hand on the right side of the body...but of course the details of the thumbs are not perfect - you are absolutely right - in the long run though, people do read stick figures and when you take the stick figure away and leave just the hands, you have the hands on the right side of the face - so we were never saying that the photo and the symbol match one hundred percent - they never have since the beginning of the system - but when we write, there is an intuitive feeling to the writing system anyway - at least that is what others tell me - I respect your concern and please go right ahead and write as you wish - we are just documenting what the symbols represent to us -
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