both-hand arrow

fernando capovilla fcapovilla3 at GMAIL.COM
Tue Feb 28 00:25:01 UTC 2012


Dear Valerie and friends,
We are always doing progress in a number of fronts at the same time, and I
am glad to inform that in the 2nd edition of the Novo Deit Libras we have
adopted a more consistent set of conventions than we did in the previous
edition of the Novo Deit Libras, as well as in the original Deit Libras. I
hope you will enjoy the progress.
Thank you, and blessings to all,
Fernando



2012/2/27 Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>

> SignWriting List
> February 27, 2012
>
> Hello Eda, Yuri, Fernando and everyone -
>
> Thank you for writing, and thank you, Yuri, for your explanation in
> Portuguese - I am looking forward to studying your messages too - I do
> appreciate the effort you made. Thank you!
>
> And I am so looking forward to telling the world about Fernando
> Capovilla's new dictionary which will be published soon. I feel so honored
> that Fernando and his team have included SignWriting and worked so hard on
> the thousands of entries - A huge job - For those who do not know about the
> dictionaries:
>
> Novo Diet-LIBRAS Dictionary
> http://www.signwriting.org/brazil/NovoDeitLibras.html
>
> So Eda, Yuri, Fernando, and everyone - Your efforts to write LIBRAS are
> admirable - Fernando and I have already discussed the issues of
> SignSpellings - There were so many different Deaf writers of the
> dictionaries which Fernando has produced, and we all know that some of them
> may not have had the time for proper instruction in SignWriting…and we have
> discussed trying to correct or re-write some of the SignSpellings in the
> dictionaries, and I actually did a little work on that with Fernando last
> year, but there are so many signs that I felt overwhelmed, So it is no
> one's fault, but there are some SignSpellings that are not the way I write,
> in the dictionaries…But I LOVE the dictionaries…no matter what...I am very
> happy and proud of the publications because we all know that writing has to
> start somewhere…without dictionaries there would be no writing at all…and
> so that is why I am explaining this to you all now, so that you can be
> informed and share the information with your co-workers and writers - Of
> course we can understand each other's writings, but it is good to know why
> we write as we do….
>
> I believe that most writers do not know this about the Movement Arrows -
> and if they understand the reason behind the Black, White and Grey
> (General) Arrowheads, I think they will see there is a real use for the
> original way the system was designed -
>
> Here is the explanation:
>
> The black arrow paints the right movement path. The white arrow paints the
> left movement path. When the right and left hands move far apart from each
> other, they paint two separate paths - one black and one white. That way,
> we can see the difference between movement with the right hand and movement
> with the left hand - This is important for linguistic reasons and for
> writing complex movement sequences when writing storytelling…Here are easy
> examples:
>
>
>
>
> BUT, imagine that your two hands move, and the black movement path writes
> on top of the white movement path…That is a grey or General Movement Arrow
> - as you can see here, in the sign for FOLLOW in ASL, the right hand is
> behind the left hand and follows the left hand…so the two movement paths
> blend and become one path…they are not contacting each other in this case,
> but it is a General Arrowhead because the paths blend...
>
>
>
> So now, let us take your examples. In the signs attached below, these
> signs show that the two hands are far apart from each other and move with
> separate paths. These signs are written correctly in this example, because
> they show the black and white paths a good space from each other, just like
> the starting position of the hands:
>
>
>
>
>
> But below, these signs are read differently. They mean something else.
> They show me that the hands start far apart from each other, but the
> Movement Path is blended together into one, which means that the black
> paint and the white paint are writing on top of each other…so that must
> mean that the two hands moved into the center to be closer to each other
> and then moved down either on top of each other, or maybe contacting each
> other, to create a single grey movement path going down - it is a different
> movement for me -
>
>
>
>
> Of course I can guess what you meant, because I know there are
> misunderstandings in the teachings, but I want you to know, Eda, how the
> system was designed. For simple signs like these I can imagine you wonder
> why it is necessary to show paths so exactly? That is because when we start
> to write complex storytelling, there are times when the Black, White and
> Grey (General) arrowheads are the only information we have for complex
> sequences - sometimes the right hand can be over on the left side of the
> body, or behind the body, in mime like sequences and the three movement
> paths are needed to be able to read the movement correctly…
>
> Thank you for asking questions and no worries - If you can start writing
> the way the system is designed, it will help when writing storytelling in
> LIBRAS later. Have you done that kind of writing? Have you written books,
> or long stories?
>
> Val ;-)
>
> -------------
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Feb 27, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Eda AMORim wrote:
>
>   Olá, Val tudo bem?
> Entendi a sua explicação.
> Mas me parece que a maioria das pessoas que usam a escrita de sinais
> entenderam que; se as duas mão fazem o mesmo movimento para a mesma direção
> , então usa-se seta de ponta aberta (General Arrow ) independente se elas
> estão sobrepostas ou não. Um exemplo disso são os sinais extraídos do
> dicionário Trilíngue  Capovilla.
>
>
> Hello, Val okay?
> I understood his explanation.
> But it seems that most people who use writing signals understood that if
> both hands are doing the same move in the same direction, then it uses
> open-headed arrow (General Arrow) regardless if they are overlapping or
> not. An example of this signals are extracted from the dictionary
> Trilingual Capovilla.
>
>
>
>  Orgulhoso                orientador        original
>
>
> Me parece que se tais sinais forem escritos com a seta de ponta aberta (General
> Arrow ) a leitura não saíra errada, porque entendo que as duas mão se
> movimentam para a mesma direção.
>
>
> It seems to me that such signs are written with the open-headed arrow
> (General Arrow) reading had not come out wrong, because I believe that both
> hands movein the same direction.
> ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
> Essa então seria a forma correta de escrever os sinais acima? Me parece
> que nas duas grafias não haverá erro na leitura dos sinais.
> This then would be the correct way to write the above signs? Seems to me
> that the two spellings no error in reading the signs.
>
>
> Val, desculpe se não estou entendendo ou se fiz alguma confusão.
> Val, sorry if I do not understand or did some confusion.
>
>
> Beijos
>
>
> Eda Amorim
> Intérprete/Tradutora e Profa. de Língua Brasileira de Sinais
> Especialista em Educação de Surdos
> **
>  CENTRO EDUCACIONAL CULTURA SURDA LTDA.
> (11) 3416-7888
> (11) 2626-4945
> (11) 9168-6761
> contato at cultursurda.com.br
> www.culturasurda.com.br
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 06:51:27 -0800
> From: nempretonembranco at YAHOO.COM.BR
> Subject: Re: both-hand arrow
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>
>   It will be a pleasure!
>
> I love spelling! (For the sign languages... For the oral languages , NO!
> NEVER! lol)
>
> --- Em *sáb, 25/2/12, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>* escreveu:
>
>
> De: Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
> Assunto: Re: both-hand arrow
> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Data: Sábado, 25 de Fevereiro de 2012, 5:31
>
>  SignWriting List
> February 24, 2012
>
> You know, the General Arrow is not a "both-hand" arrow - it is an
> "overlapping path" arrow -
>
> Yuri - Can I ask you a favor? Can you teach the "SignWriting in Brazil
> Facebook group " about Overlapping Paths in Portuguese?
>
> Google Translate does not do a perfect job - Here is the Google
> Translation - Can you fix the Portuguese for me? Many thanks!!  Val ;-)
>
>
> ----------
>
> As setas direita, esquerda e Geral estão representando "os caminhos do
> movimento".
>
> Imagine sua mão direita tem tinta preta sobre ela. Sua mão esquerda tem
> pintura branca. Há um caminho preto, e um caminho branco mostrando o
> movimento no espaço.
>
> Agora imagine duas mãos se movendo para baixo, lado a lado. Eles pintam dois
> caminhos separados no espaço ... um caminho negro e um caminho branco.
>
> Mas agora imaginar as duas mãos, com um acima do outro, mas não
> contactando ... simplesmente um acima do outro.Quando as duas mãos
> começam a mover-se juntos, as tintas acima um em cima do caminho do outro
> no fundo ... Os doiscombinam caminhos ... E quando eles se misturam ... você
> não pode ver preto ou branco - torna-se cinza e ... de modo que o caminho é
> o GREY Arrowhead Geral ...
>
> Eles também poderiam ser entrar em contato ... mas os caminhos a preto e
> branco têm de se sobrepor, para se tornar cinza.Não requer contato.
>
> Isto é ensinado nos livros didáticos "Basics Signwriting" a partir de 2009,
> que é gratuito para download na web. Ir para:
>
> SignWriting Aulas on-line
> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>
> e baixar o número 1 na página web - Noções básicas chamadas Signwriting.
>
> Aqui está o trecho do livro, na página 34 do livro (número de página no
> livro) ... a página PDF é a página 39 -
>
>
> -----
>
>  The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".
>
> Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
> paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
> space.
>
> Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate
> paths in space…a black path and a white path.
>
> But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
> contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to
> move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on
> the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see
> black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General
> Arrowhead…
>
> They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to
> overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.
>
> This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is
> free for download on the web. Go to:
>
> SignWriting Lessons Online
> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>
> and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.
>
> Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page in
> the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Feb 24, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Yuri Barreto wrote:
>
>        Well, in an economical way, I believe that is so good ...
>
> --- Em *sex, 24/2/12, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM<http:///mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> >* escreveu:
>
>
> De: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM<http:///mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> >
> Assunto: AW: both-hand arrow
> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<http:///mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Data: Sexta-feira, 24 de Fevereiro de 2012, 19:50
>
>   Hi friends,
>
>
>
>
>
> I would prefer this spelling –
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
>  ------------------------------
>  *Von:* SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:
> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von*Valerie Sutton
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 21:30
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<http:///mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> *Betreff:* Re: both-hand arrow
>
> SignWriting List
>  February 24, 2012
>
>  Regarding this, let me show you a really beautiful writing in
> SignWriting from Brazil, by Yuri, who posted this on Facebook, and thank
> you, Yuri, for this posting - I was so happy to see it - I love seeing your
> SignWriting - I hope you don't mind that I point to one of your
> SignSpellings ;-)
>
>
>
>
>  Notice the arrow in the first sign -
>
>  In this case, for me, this is not a General Arrowhead - the two paths
> are not overlapping into GREY…it would be a right and left arrowhead - The
> right arrow is written over the right hand and the left arrow is written
> over the left hand - the Rub symbol could be written once between the two
> arrows… here is an example...
>
>
>
>
>
>  Val ;-)
>
>
>  --------
>
>  On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>
>
>  SignWriting List
>  February 24, 2012
>
>  Hello SignWriting List, Honza, Ingvild, Kimberley -
>
>  Thank you for the question and the responses… I realize that you may be
> using the General Arrowhead differently than the way I teach it…and all is
> ok. Part of the reason there has been confusion is that our older textbooks
> did not explain this well, in fact I believe the old textbook said "if they
> contact, it is General, and that is true, but it is not the whole story… so
> you can put the blame on my old textbooks ;-)
>
>  I have wanted to explain this better for a long time…It is a subject I
> had been planning to bring up here on the List, so thank you for the
> question Honza -
>
>  You see, the General Arrowhead means "Overlapping Paths". I always
> imagine Marcel Marceau, the famous classic mime artist, with his hands in
> black and white paint, painting imaginary paths of movement in space…
>
>  So here is how I teach it:
>
>  The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".
>
>  Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
> paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
> space.
>
>  Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate
> paths in space…a black path and a white path.
>
>  But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
> contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to
> move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on
> the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see
> black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General
> Arrowhead…
>
>  They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to
> overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.
>
>  This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is
> free for download on the web. Go to:
>
>  SignWriting Lessons Online
>  http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>
>  and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.
>
>  Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page
> in the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -
>
>
>
>
>  ------
>
>
>
>
>     Val ;-)
>
> Valerie Sutton
> SignWriting List moderator
> sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
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>
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>
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>
>
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-- 
 Fernando C. Capovilla, PhD
Professor Titular, Instituto de Psicologia, USP
Coord Lab Neuropsicolinguística Cognitiva Experimental, IP-Usp
Av. Prof. Mello de Morais 1721, São Paulo, SP, 05508-030
 http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html
 email: fcapovilla3 at gmail.com
site: http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html
 Veja nossos novos livros (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais), e
baixe alguns, de: http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/livros.html
Baixe artigos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de:
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/artigos.html
Baixe capítulos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de:
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/capitulos.html
Assista à entrevista concedida à TV Cultura sobre dislexia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8DLAGG-Pg e aqui legendada para surdos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLHpO2ylCUw
Assista à entrevista original concedida à Globo News sobre a importância da
Libras e da educação bilíngue de Surdos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVbzA7fpJWE&feature=related
Leia a entrevista concedida ao jornal O Estado de São Paulo:
http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,o-surdo-deve-ser-educado-no-idioma-materno-e-por-meio-dele,737415,0.htm<http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,o-surdo-deve-ser-educado-no-idioma-materno-e-por-meio-dele,737415,0.htm%C2%A0e><http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,o-surdo-deve-ser-educado-no-idioma-materno-e-por-meio-dele,737415,0.htm>
 e em
http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,inclusao-de-surdos-esbarra-na-linguagem,737414,0.htm
Assista à entrevista concedida à Globo News sobre Educação Bilíngue de
Surdos em forma falada e traduzida para Libras simultaneamente. Parte 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7hRIPjWuWs
 Assista à  entrevista concedida à Globo News sobre Educação Bilíngue de
Surdos em forma falada e traduzida para Libras simultaneamente. Parte 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLqcFJtV54&feature=related
Assista à entrevista concedida à Rádio Joven Pan com áudio original e
traduzida para Libras, parte 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opJBDCvyx3E&feature=related
 Assista à entrevista concedida à Rádio Joven Pan com áudio original e
traduzida para Libras, parte 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGpRiKyJ0GU&feature=related
Assista à entrevista concedida à TV Brasil sobre Dicionário de Libras:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=KE0nyLDoum8
Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com lexicografia da Língua de
Sinais Brasileira (Libras):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Sign_Language
Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com escrita de sinais de Libras em
SignWriting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting

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