both-hand arrow
fernando capovilla
fcapovilla3 at GMAIL.COM
Tue Feb 28 00:25:01 UTC 2012
Dear Valerie and friends,
We are always doing progress in a number of fronts at the same time, and I
am glad to inform that in the 2nd edition of the Novo Deit Libras we have
adopted a more consistent set of conventions than we did in the previous
edition of the Novo Deit Libras, as well as in the original Deit Libras. I
hope you will enjoy the progress.
Thank you, and blessings to all,
Fernando
2012/2/27 Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> SignWriting List
> February 27, 2012
>
> Hello Eda, Yuri, Fernando and everyone -
>
> Thank you for writing, and thank you, Yuri, for your explanation in
> Portuguese - I am looking forward to studying your messages too - I do
> appreciate the effort you made. Thank you!
>
> And I am so looking forward to telling the world about Fernando
> Capovilla's new dictionary which will be published soon. I feel so honored
> that Fernando and his team have included SignWriting and worked so hard on
> the thousands of entries - A huge job - For those who do not know about the
> dictionaries:
>
> Novo Diet-LIBRAS Dictionary
> http://www.signwriting.org/brazil/NovoDeitLibras.html
>
> So Eda, Yuri, Fernando, and everyone - Your efforts to write LIBRAS are
> admirable - Fernando and I have already discussed the issues of
> SignSpellings - There were so many different Deaf writers of the
> dictionaries which Fernando has produced, and we all know that some of them
> may not have had the time for proper instruction in SignWriting…and we have
> discussed trying to correct or re-write some of the SignSpellings in the
> dictionaries, and I actually did a little work on that with Fernando last
> year, but there are so many signs that I felt overwhelmed, So it is no
> one's fault, but there are some SignSpellings that are not the way I write,
> in the dictionaries…But I LOVE the dictionaries…no matter what...I am very
> happy and proud of the publications because we all know that writing has to
> start somewhere…without dictionaries there would be no writing at all…and
> so that is why I am explaining this to you all now, so that you can be
> informed and share the information with your co-workers and writers - Of
> course we can understand each other's writings, but it is good to know why
> we write as we do….
>
> I believe that most writers do not know this about the Movement Arrows -
> and if they understand the reason behind the Black, White and Grey
> (General) Arrowheads, I think they will see there is a real use for the
> original way the system was designed -
>
> Here is the explanation:
>
> The black arrow paints the right movement path. The white arrow paints the
> left movement path. When the right and left hands move far apart from each
> other, they paint two separate paths - one black and one white. That way,
> we can see the difference between movement with the right hand and movement
> with the left hand - This is important for linguistic reasons and for
> writing complex movement sequences when writing storytelling…Here are easy
> examples:
>
>
>
>
> BUT, imagine that your two hands move, and the black movement path writes
> on top of the white movement path…That is a grey or General Movement Arrow
> - as you can see here, in the sign for FOLLOW in ASL, the right hand is
> behind the left hand and follows the left hand…so the two movement paths
> blend and become one path…they are not contacting each other in this case,
> but it is a General Arrowhead because the paths blend...
>
>
>
> So now, let us take your examples. In the signs attached below, these
> signs show that the two hands are far apart from each other and move with
> separate paths. These signs are written correctly in this example, because
> they show the black and white paths a good space from each other, just like
> the starting position of the hands:
>
>
>
>
>
> But below, these signs are read differently. They mean something else.
> They show me that the hands start far apart from each other, but the
> Movement Path is blended together into one, which means that the black
> paint and the white paint are writing on top of each other…so that must
> mean that the two hands moved into the center to be closer to each other
> and then moved down either on top of each other, or maybe contacting each
> other, to create a single grey movement path going down - it is a different
> movement for me -
>
>
>
>
> Of course I can guess what you meant, because I know there are
> misunderstandings in the teachings, but I want you to know, Eda, how the
> system was designed. For simple signs like these I can imagine you wonder
> why it is necessary to show paths so exactly? That is because when we start
> to write complex storytelling, there are times when the Black, White and
> Grey (General) arrowheads are the only information we have for complex
> sequences - sometimes the right hand can be over on the left side of the
> body, or behind the body, in mime like sequences and the three movement
> paths are needed to be able to read the movement correctly…
>
> Thank you for asking questions and no worries - If you can start writing
> the way the system is designed, it will help when writing storytelling in
> LIBRAS later. Have you done that kind of writing? Have you written books,
> or long stories?
>
> Val ;-)
>
> -------------
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Eda AMORim wrote:
>
> Olá, Val tudo bem?
> Entendi a sua explicação.
> Mas me parece que a maioria das pessoas que usam a escrita de sinais
> entenderam que; se as duas mão fazem o mesmo movimento para a mesma direção
> , então usa-se seta de ponta aberta (General Arrow ) independente se elas
> estão sobrepostas ou não. Um exemplo disso são os sinais extraídos do
> dicionário Trilíngue Capovilla.
>
>
> Hello, Val okay?
> I understood his explanation.
> But it seems that most people who use writing signals understood that if
> both hands are doing the same move in the same direction, then it uses
> open-headed arrow (General Arrow) regardless if they are overlapping or
> not. An example of this signals are extracted from the dictionary
> Trilingual Capovilla.
>
>
>
> Orgulhoso orientador original
>
>
> Me parece que se tais sinais forem escritos com a seta de ponta aberta (General
> Arrow ) a leitura não saíra errada, porque entendo que as duas mão se
> movimentam para a mesma direção.
>
>
> It seems to me that such signs are written with the open-headed arrow
> (General Arrow) reading had not come out wrong, because I believe that both
> hands movein the same direction.
> ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
> Essa então seria a forma correta de escrever os sinais acima? Me parece
> que nas duas grafias não haverá erro na leitura dos sinais.
> This then would be the correct way to write the above signs? Seems to me
> that the two spellings no error in reading the signs.
>
>
> Val, desculpe se não estou entendendo ou se fiz alguma confusão.
> Val, sorry if I do not understand or did some confusion.
>
>
> Beijos
>
>
> Eda Amorim
> Intérprete/Tradutora e Profa. de Língua Brasileira de Sinais
> Especialista em Educação de Surdos
> **
> CENTRO EDUCACIONAL CULTURA SURDA LTDA.
> (11) 3416-7888
> (11) 2626-4945
> (11) 9168-6761
> contato at cultursurda.com.br
> www.culturasurda.com.br
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 06:51:27 -0800
> From: nempretonembranco at YAHOO.COM.BR
> Subject: Re: both-hand arrow
> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>
> It will be a pleasure!
>
> I love spelling! (For the sign languages... For the oral languages , NO!
> NEVER! lol)
>
> --- Em *sáb, 25/2/12, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>* escreveu:
>
>
> De: Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
> Assunto: Re: both-hand arrow
> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
> Data: Sábado, 25 de Fevereiro de 2012, 5:31
>
> SignWriting List
> February 24, 2012
>
> You know, the General Arrow is not a "both-hand" arrow - it is an
> "overlapping path" arrow -
>
> Yuri - Can I ask you a favor? Can you teach the "SignWriting in Brazil
> Facebook group " about Overlapping Paths in Portuguese?
>
> Google Translate does not do a perfect job - Here is the Google
> Translation - Can you fix the Portuguese for me? Many thanks!! Val ;-)
>
>
> ----------
>
> As setas direita, esquerda e Geral estão representando "os caminhos do
> movimento".
>
> Imagine sua mão direita tem tinta preta sobre ela. Sua mão esquerda tem
> pintura branca. Há um caminho preto, e um caminho branco mostrando o
> movimento no espaço.
>
> Agora imagine duas mãos se movendo para baixo, lado a lado. Eles pintam dois
> caminhos separados no espaço ... um caminho negro e um caminho branco.
>
> Mas agora imaginar as duas mãos, com um acima do outro, mas não
> contactando ... simplesmente um acima do outro.Quando as duas mãos
> começam a mover-se juntos, as tintas acima um em cima do caminho do outro
> no fundo ... Os doiscombinam caminhos ... E quando eles se misturam ... você
> não pode ver preto ou branco - torna-se cinza e ... de modo que o caminho é
> o GREY Arrowhead Geral ...
>
> Eles também poderiam ser entrar em contato ... mas os caminhos a preto e
> branco têm de se sobrepor, para se tornar cinza.Não requer contato.
>
> Isto é ensinado nos livros didáticos "Basics Signwriting" a partir de 2009,
> que é gratuito para download na web. Ir para:
>
> SignWriting Aulas on-line
> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>
> e baixar o número 1 na página web - Noções básicas chamadas Signwriting.
>
> Aqui está o trecho do livro, na página 34 do livro (número de página no
> livro) ... a página PDF é a página 39 -
>
>
> -----
>
> The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".
>
> Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
> paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
> space.
>
> Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate
> paths in space…a black path and a white path.
>
> But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
> contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to
> move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on
> the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see
> black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General
> Arrowhead…
>
> They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to
> overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.
>
> This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is
> free for download on the web. Go to:
>
> SignWriting Lessons Online
> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>
> and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.
>
> Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page in
> the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Yuri Barreto wrote:
>
> Well, in an economical way, I believe that is so good ...
>
> --- Em *sex, 24/2/12, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM<http:///mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> >* escreveu:
>
>
> De: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM<http:///mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
> >
> Assunto: AW: both-hand arrow
> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<http:///mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Data: Sexta-feira, 24 de Fevereiro de 2012, 19:50
>
> Hi friends,
>
>
>
>
>
> I would prefer this spelling –
>
> Stefan ;-)
>
> ------------------------------
> *Von:* SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:
> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von*Valerie Sutton
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 21:30
> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<http:///mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> *Betreff:* Re: both-hand arrow
>
> SignWriting List
> February 24, 2012
>
> Regarding this, let me show you a really beautiful writing in
> SignWriting from Brazil, by Yuri, who posted this on Facebook, and thank
> you, Yuri, for this posting - I was so happy to see it - I love seeing your
> SignWriting - I hope you don't mind that I point to one of your
> SignSpellings ;-)
>
>
>
>
> Notice the arrow in the first sign -
>
> In this case, for me, this is not a General Arrowhead - the two paths
> are not overlapping into GREY…it would be a right and left arrowhead - The
> right arrow is written over the right hand and the left arrow is written
> over the left hand - the Rub symbol could be written once between the two
> arrows… here is an example...
>
>
>
>
>
> Val ;-)
>
>
> --------
>
> On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>
>
> SignWriting List
> February 24, 2012
>
> Hello SignWriting List, Honza, Ingvild, Kimberley -
>
> Thank you for the question and the responses… I realize that you may be
> using the General Arrowhead differently than the way I teach it…and all is
> ok. Part of the reason there has been confusion is that our older textbooks
> did not explain this well, in fact I believe the old textbook said "if they
> contact, it is General, and that is true, but it is not the whole story… so
> you can put the blame on my old textbooks ;-)
>
> I have wanted to explain this better for a long time…It is a subject I
> had been planning to bring up here on the List, so thank you for the
> question Honza -
>
> You see, the General Arrowhead means "Overlapping Paths". I always
> imagine Marcel Marceau, the famous classic mime artist, with his hands in
> black and white paint, painting imaginary paths of movement in space…
>
> So here is how I teach it:
>
> The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement paths".
>
> Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
> paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
> space.
>
> Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate
> paths in space…a black path and a white path.
>
> But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
> contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to
> move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on
> the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see
> black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General
> Arrowhead…
>
> They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to
> overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.
>
> This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is
> free for download on the web. Go to:
>
> SignWriting Lessons Online
> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>
> and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.
>
> Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page
> in the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -
>
>
>
>
> ------
>
>
>
>
> Val ;-)
>
> Valerie Sutton
> SignWriting List moderator
> sutton at signwriting.org
>
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--
Fernando C. Capovilla, PhD
Professor Titular, Instituto de Psicologia, USP
Coord Lab Neuropsicolinguística Cognitiva Experimental, IP-Usp
Av. Prof. Mello de Morais 1721, São Paulo, SP, 05508-030
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html
email: fcapovilla3 at gmail.com
site: http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/index.html
Veja nossos novos livros (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais), e
baixe alguns, de: http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/livros.html
Baixe artigos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de:
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/artigos.html
Baixe capítulos (sobre linguagem oral, escrita e de sinais) de:
http://www.ip.usp.br/lance/capitulos.html
Assista à entrevista concedida à TV Cultura sobre dislexia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL8DLAGG-Pg e aqui legendada para surdos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLHpO2ylCUw
Assista à entrevista original concedida à Globo News sobre a importância da
Libras e da educação bilíngue de Surdos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVbzA7fpJWE&feature=related
Leia a entrevista concedida ao jornal O Estado de São Paulo:
http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,o-surdo-deve-ser-educado-no-idioma-materno-e-por-meio-dele,737415,0.htm<http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,o-surdo-deve-ser-educado-no-idioma-materno-e-por-meio-dele,737415,0.htm%C2%A0e><http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,o-surdo-deve-ser-educado-no-idioma-materno-e-por-meio-dele,737415,0.htm>
e em
http://www.estadao.com.br/noticias/impresso,inclusao-de-surdos-esbarra-na-linguagem,737414,0.htm
Assista à entrevista concedida à Globo News sobre Educação Bilíngue de
Surdos em forma falada e traduzida para Libras simultaneamente. Parte 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7hRIPjWuWs
Assista à entrevista concedida à Globo News sobre Educação Bilíngue de
Surdos em forma falada e traduzida para Libras simultaneamente. Parte 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKLqcFJtV54&feature=related
Assista à entrevista concedida à Rádio Joven Pan com áudio original e
traduzida para Libras, parte 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opJBDCvyx3E&feature=related
Assista à entrevista concedida à Rádio Joven Pan com áudio original e
traduzida para Libras, parte 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGpRiKyJ0GU&feature=related
Assista à entrevista concedida à TV Brasil sobre Dicionário de Libras:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=KE0nyLDoum8
Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com lexicografia da Língua de
Sinais Brasileira (Libras):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Sign_Language
Veja citação no Wikipedia pelo trabalho com escrita de sinais de Libras em
SignWriting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SignWriting
*"I have always felt as I pass from the turmoil of urban streets through
the gates and onto the campus of an institution of higher learning,
anywhere in the world, a sense of relief and comfort, solemnity and
freedom. The feeling is not unlike that when one enters a national park,
for this is what colleges and universities are -- they are sanctuaries,
preserves -- of civilization. They are the only institution in the course
of human endeavor whose sole purpose and mission is to know the course,
content, and directions of civilization, to understand, preserve protect,
and transmit these findings, and to seek further advances and new insights
into the truth of ourselves and the world...[The] environment
should...assure exposure to all the necessary skills and the best ideas and
conceptual frameworks of the time, and provide stimulation from an active,
well-read thoughtful, positive, innovative, and open faculty, all in an
atmosphere of freedom and tolerance. Like libraries that have to have all
the books to make sure they have the one somebody needs, we have to have
the freedom at universities to tolerate and encourage all sorts of
individual diversity, both in faculty and students, so that we can be sure
that the best mind gets the exposure to the best cognitive resource which
might enable that one-in-a-million new idea that can change the course of a
discipline, or civilization." *
*(Peter Coney, distinguished University of Arizona professor, now deceased,
who understood what was required of a university to nurture growth and
discovery) http://www.geo.arizona.edu/web/DavisG/present-11.html*
*http://www.flickr.com/photos/ccesaopaulo/5617140579/*<http://www.flickr.com/photos/ccesaopaulo/5617140579/>
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