both-hand arrow

fernando capovilla fcapovilla3 at GMAIL.COM
Tue Feb 28 00:29:22 UTC 2012 

PS:
Please notice that
"DEIT" stands for "Dicionario Enciclopedico Ilustrado Trilingue".
It is not "DIET" but, rather, "DEIT".
It could not be "DIET" because it is a rather bulky dictionary, not a slim
one.... (smile)
(even though I myself could use a DIET... - another smile)


2012/2/27 fernando capovilla <fcapovilla3 at gmail.com>

> Dear Valerie and friends,
> We are always doing progress in a number of fronts at the same time, and I
> am glad to inform that in the 2nd edition of the Novo Deit Libras we have
> adopted a more consistent set of conventions than we did in the previous
> edition of the Novo Deit Libras, as well as in the original Deit Libras. I
> hope you will enjoy the progress.
> Thank you, and blessings to all,
> Fernando
>
>
>
> 2012/2/27 Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>
>> SignWriting List
>> February 27, 2012
>>
>> Hello Eda, Yuri, Fernando and everyone -
>>
>> Thank you for writing, and thank you, Yuri, for your explanation in
>> Portuguese - I am looking forward to studying your messages too - I do
>> appreciate the effort you made. Thank you!
>>
>> And I am so looking forward to telling the world about Fernando
>> Capovilla's new dictionary which will be published soon. I feel so honored
>> that Fernando and his team have included SignWriting and worked so hard on
>> the thousands of entries - A huge job - For those who do not know about the
>> dictionaries:
>>
>> Novo Diet-LIBRAS Dictionary
>> http://www.signwriting.org/brazil/NovoDeitLibras.html
>>
>> So Eda, Yuri, Fernando, and everyone - Your efforts to write LIBRAS are
>> admirable - Fernando and I have already discussed the issues of
>> SignSpellings - There were so many different Deaf writers of the
>> dictionaries which Fernando has produced, and we all know that some of them
>> may not have had the time for proper instruction in SignWriting…and we have
>> discussed trying to correct or re-write some of the SignSpellings in the
>> dictionaries, and I actually did a little work on that with Fernando last
>> year, but there are so many signs that I felt overwhelmed, So it is no
>> one's fault, but there are some SignSpellings that are not the way I write,
>> in the dictionaries…But I LOVE the dictionaries…no matter what...I am very
>> happy and proud of the publications because we all know that writing has to
>> start somewhere…without dictionaries there would be no writing at all…and
>> so that is why I am explaining this to you all now, so that you can be
>> informed and share the information with your co-workers and writers - Of
>> course we can understand each other's writings, but it is good to know why
>> we write as we do….
>>
>> I believe that most writers do not know this about the Movement Arrows -
>> and if they understand the reason behind the Black, White and Grey
>> (General) Arrowheads, I think they will see there is a real use for the
>> original way the system was designed -
>>
>> Here is the explanation:
>>
>> The black arrow paints the right movement path. The white arrow paints
>> the left movement path. When the right and left hands move far apart from
>> each other, they paint two separate paths - one black and one white. That
>> way, we can see the difference between movement with the right hand and
>> movement with the left hand - This is important for linguistic reasons and
>> for writing complex movement sequences when writing storytelling…Here are
>> easy examples:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> BUT, imagine that your two hands move, and the black movement path writes
>> on top of the white movement path…That is a grey or General Movement Arrow
>> - as you can see here, in the sign for FOLLOW in ASL, the right hand is
>> behind the left hand and follows the left hand…so the two movement paths
>> blend and become one path…they are not contacting each other in this case,
>> but it is a General Arrowhead because the paths blend...
>>
>>
>>
>> So now, let us take your examples. In the signs attached below, these
>> signs show that the two hands are far apart from each other and move with
>> separate paths. These signs are written correctly in this example, because
>> they show the black and white paths a good space from each other, just like
>> the starting position of the hands:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But below, these signs are read differently. They mean something else.
>> They show me that the hands start far apart from each other, but the
>> Movement Path is blended together into one, which means that the black
>> paint and the white paint are writing on top of each other…so that must
>> mean that the two hands moved into the center to be closer to each other
>> and then moved down either on top of each other, or maybe contacting each
>> other, to create a single grey movement path going down - it is a different
>> movement for me -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course I can guess what you meant, because I know there are
>> misunderstandings in the teachings, but I want you to know, Eda, how the
>> system was designed. For simple signs like these I can imagine you wonder
>> why it is necessary to show paths so exactly? That is because when we start
>> to write complex storytelling, there are times when the Black, White and
>> Grey (General) arrowheads are the only information we have for complex
>> sequences - sometimes the right hand can be over on the left side of the
>> body, or behind the body, in mime like sequences and the three movement
>> paths are needed to be able to read the movement correctly…
>>
>> Thank you for asking questions and no worries - If you can start writing
>> the way the system is designed, it will help when writing storytelling in
>> LIBRAS later. Have you done that kind of writing? Have you written books,
>> or long stories?
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> -------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Feb 27, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Eda AMORim wrote:
>>
>>   Olá, Val tudo bem?
>> Entendi a sua explicação.
>> Mas me parece que a maioria das pessoas que usam a escrita de sinais
>> entenderam que; se as duas mão fazem o mesmo movimento para a mesma direção
>> , então usa-se seta de ponta aberta (General Arrow ) independente se
>> elas estão sobrepostas ou não. Um exemplo disso são os sinais extraídos do
>> dicionário Trilíngue  Capovilla.
>>
>>
>> Hello, Val okay?
>> I understood his explanation.
>> But it seems that most people who use writing signals understood that if
>> both hands are doing the same move in the same direction, then it uses
>> open-headed arrow (General Arrow) regardless if they are overlapping or
>> not. An example of this signals are extracted from the dictionary
>> Trilingual Capovilla.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Orgulhoso                orientador        original
>>
>>
>> Me parece que se tais sinais forem escritos com a seta de ponta aberta (General
>> Arrow ) a leitura não saíra errada, porque entendo que as duas mão se
>> movimentam para a mesma direção.
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that such signs are written with the open-headed arrow
>> (General Arrow) reading had not come out wrong, because I believe that both
>> hands movein the same direction.
>> ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
>> Essa então seria a forma correta de escrever os sinais acima? Me parece
>> que nas duas grafias não haverá erro na leitura dos sinais.
>> This then would be the correct way to write the above signs? Seems to me
>> that the two spellings no error in reading the signs.
>>
>>
>> Val, desculpe se não estou entendendo ou se fiz alguma confusão.
>> Val, sorry if I do not understand or did some confusion.
>>
>>
>> Beijos
>>
>>
>> Eda Amorim
>> Intérprete/Tradutora e Profa. de Língua Brasileira de Sinais
>> Especialista em Educação de Surdos
>> **
>>  CENTRO EDUCACIONAL CULTURA SURDA LTDA.
>> (11) 3416-7888
>> (11) 2626-4945
>> (11) 9168-6761
>> contato at cultursurda.com.br
>> www.culturasurda.com.br
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 06:51:27 -0800
>> From: nempretonembranco at YAHOO.COM.BR
>> Subject: Re: both-hand arrow
>> To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>>
>>   It will be a pleasure!
>>
>> I love spelling! (For the sign languages... For the oral languages , NO!
>> NEVER! lol)
>>
>> --- Em *sáb, 25/2/12, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>* escreveu:
>>
>>
>> De: Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>> Assunto: Re: both-hand arrow
>> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
>> Data: Sábado, 25 de Fevereiro de 2012, 5:31
>>
>>  SignWriting List
>> February 24, 2012
>>
>> You know, the General Arrow is not a "both-hand" arrow - it is an
>> "overlapping path" arrow -
>>
>> Yuri - Can I ask you a favor? Can you teach the "SignWriting in Brazil
>> Facebook group " about Overlapping Paths in Portuguese?
>>
>> Google Translate does not do a perfect job - Here is the Google
>> Translation - Can you fix the Portuguese for me? Many thanks!!  Val ;-)
>>
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> As setas direita, esquerda e Geral estão representando "os caminhos do
>> movimento".
>>
>> Imagine sua mão direita tem tinta preta sobre ela. Sua mão esquerda tem
>> pintura branca. Há um caminho preto, e um caminho branco mostrando o
>> movimento no espaço.
>>
>> Agora imagine duas mãos se movendo para baixo, lado a lado. Eles pintam dois
>> caminhos separados no espaço ... um caminho negro e um caminho branco.
>>
>> Mas agora imaginar as duas mãos, com um acima do outro, mas não
>> contactando ... simplesmente um acima do outro.Quando as duas mãos
>> começam a mover-se juntos, as tintas acima um em cima do caminho do outro
>> no fundo ... Os doiscombinam caminhos ... E quando eles se misturam ... você
>> não pode ver preto ou branco - torna-se cinza e ... de modo que o caminho
>>  é o GREY Arrowhead Geral ...
>>
>> Eles também poderiam ser entrar em contato ... mas os caminhos a preto e
>> branco têm de se sobrepor, para se tornar cinza.Não requer contato.
>>
>> Isto é ensinado nos livros didáticos "Basics Signwriting" a partir de
>> 2009, que é gratuito para download na web. Ir para:
>>
>> SignWriting Aulas on-line
>> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>>
>> e baixar o número 1 na página web - Noções básicas chamadas Signwriting.
>>
>> Aqui está o trecho do livro, na página 34 do livro (número de página no
>> livro) ... a página PDF é a página 39 -
>>
>>
>> -----
>>
>>  The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement
>> paths".
>>
>> Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
>> paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
>> space.
>>
>> Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two separate
>> paths in space…a black path and a white path.
>>
>> But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
>> contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to
>> move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on
>> the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see
>> black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General
>> Arrowhead…
>>
>> They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to
>> overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.
>>
>> This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is
>> free for download on the web. Go to:
>>
>> SignWriting Lessons Online
>> http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>>
>> and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.
>>
>> Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page
>> in the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Feb 24, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Yuri Barreto wrote:
>>
>>        Well, in an economical way, I believe that is so good ...
>>
>> --- Em *sex, 24/2/12, Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM<http:///mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
>> >* escreveu:
>>
>>
>> De: Stefan Wöhrmann <stefanwoehrmann at GOOGLEMAIL.COM<http:///mc/compose?to=stefanwoehrmann%40GOOGLEMAIL.COM>
>> >
>> Assunto: AW: both-hand arrow
>> Para: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<http:///mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>> Data: Sexta-feira, 24 de Fevereiro de 2012, 19:50
>>
>>   Hi friends,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would prefer this spelling –
>>
>> Stefan ;-)
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>  *Von:* SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages [mailto:
>> SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU] *Im Auftrag von*Valerie Sutton
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 24. Februar 2012 21:30
>> *An:* SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU<http:///mc/compose?to=SW-L%40LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>> *Betreff:* Re: both-hand arrow
>>
>> SignWriting List
>>  February 24, 2012
>>
>>  Regarding this, let me show you a really beautiful writing in
>> SignWriting from Brazil, by Yuri, who posted this on Facebook, and thank
>> you, Yuri, for this posting - I was so happy to see it - I love seeing your
>> SignWriting - I hope you don't mind that I point to one of your
>> SignSpellings ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Notice the arrow in the first sign -
>>
>>  In this case, for me, this is not a General Arrowhead - the two paths
>> are not overlapping into GREY…it would be a right and left arrowhead - The
>> right arrow is written over the right hand and the left arrow is written
>> over the left hand - the Rub symbol could be written once between the two
>> arrows… here is an example...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Val ;-)
>>
>>
>>  --------
>>
>>  On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:11 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>>
>>
>>  SignWriting List
>>  February 24, 2012
>>
>>  Hello SignWriting List, Honza, Ingvild, Kimberley -
>>
>>  Thank you for the question and the responses… I realize that you may be
>> using the General Arrowhead differently than the way I teach it…and all is
>> ok. Part of the reason there has been confusion is that our older textbooks
>> did not explain this well, in fact I believe the old textbook said "if they
>> contact, it is General, and that is true, but it is not the whole story… so
>> you can put the blame on my old textbooks ;-)
>>
>>  I have wanted to explain this better for a long time…It is a subject I
>> had been planning to bring up here on the List, so thank you for the
>> question Honza -
>>
>>  You see, the General Arrowhead means "Overlapping Paths". I always
>> imagine Marcel Marceau, the famous classic mime artist, with his hands in
>> black and white paint, painting imaginary paths of movement in space…
>>
>>  So here is how I teach it:
>>
>>  The Right, Left and General Arrowheads are representing "movement
>> paths".
>>
>>  Imagine your right hand has black paint on it. Your left hand has white
>> paint on it. There is a black path, and a white path showing movement in
>> space.
>>
>>  Now imagine two hands moving down, side by side. They paint two
>> separate paths in space…a black path and a white path.
>>
>>  But now imagine the two hands with one above the other one, but NOT
>> contacting…just simply one above the other. When the two hands start to
>> move down together, the one above paints on top of the path of the one on
>> the bottom…the two paths blend…and when they blend…you can no longer see
>> black or white - it becomes grey… and so the GREY path is the General
>> Arrowhead…
>>
>>  They could also be contacting…but the black and white paths have to
>> overlap, to become GREY. It does not require contact.
>>
>>  This is taught in the textbook "SignWriting Basics" from 2009, which is
>> free for download on the web. Go to:
>>
>>  SignWriting Lessons Online
>>  http://www.SignWriting.org/lessons <http://www.signwriting.org/lessons>
>>
>>  and download number 1 on that web page - called SignWriting Basics.
>>
>>  Here is the excerpt from that book, on page 34 in the book (number page
>> in the book)… the PDF page is page 39 -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Val ;-)
>>
>> Valerie Sutton
>> SignWriting List moderator
>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>
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>>
>>
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