Ordering Signs in Dictionaries

Thu Aug 14 04:19:50 UTC 2014

I have tried to figure out how to sort out left from right hands in the sequence, and the best I can do is to treat ALL signs as right hand dominant and then follow the rotational patterns toward the center. The left hand follows in the same sequence as the right hand, but we need to research it as the SignPuddle treats one hand as having 96 rotations rather than being split in two to 2 hands of 48 orientations each. Sometimes a hand just does weird things in motion so that one needs all 96 rotations (and sometimes the in-between ones). It is a challenge and we are all learning as we go along. 

I have not tried to put an English and ASL translation of each sign in LIBRAS into the SignPuddle. 

I was working through all the examples as actually currently in the LIBRAS SignPuddle when I started, and used only those signs that could attest who put them in and had three different editors in Brazil going through the signs I chose to ensure that they were well formed and attested as there are many "experiments" in both the ASL and LIBRAS SignPuddles that are not fully vetted. 

I will try to load up more of my dictionaries as I am able, but I must confess I can't give the stuff away. Valerie has other sources of income, I have very little, and I cannot block out the time to work on the dictionary except very occasionally, without compensation. In Brazil, I was living on a flat sum and was there as a researcher, so I was paid for my work, however tiny. Back in the US I don't have that luxury. 

Charles Butler
chazzer3332000 at yahoo.com
240-764-5748
Clear writing moves business forward.

________________________________
 From: André L <andre-andre at HOTMAIL.CA>
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries

Hello,
sorting by the rotation of the hand may not be effective in LSQ because of directional signs. 

André Lemyre

________________________________
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 22:05:50 -0400
From: duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
Subject: Re: Ordering Signs in Dictionaries
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU

Hi Charles,
    I watched your talk again today.  I realized that what I call
    "Sign Sequence" you call "Sign Spelling".  I guess it is
    "SignSpelling Sequence".  So I didn't understand that the first
    time.  So now after this more attentive listening to your talk, I
    see that you definitely are using SignSpelling Sequence for all your
    entries and that you are doing them manually the same way Val
    suggested in the SignSpelling Guidelines.   
    Am I correct in my understanding that which symbols come first
    in the sorted list is different from the way SignPuddle is sorting?  

Your sorting would be sorted by the
1. First by symbol in the sign sequence's basegroup of the first
    hand in the SignSpelling Sequence
2. What figure (See the individual chapters)? I need more explanation about this one.
3. The for each basegroup sort by fill

4. In each fill sorting, sort by rotation ( but not distinguishing between right and left hands.  
I see you number both from 1 to 8 in instead of numbering them all
      from 1 to 16)

5. Location symbol. comes after hand symbol when comparing.
From first to last 
No Body - hand to hand, head, body 

5.1 Location sorting on hand contact order doesn't seem to be defined yet

5.2 Head location sorting

5.3 Body body 
Indicate the location of the body, placing the graphic in the left
    lane, the middle lane, or 
right lane. - Need this explained I'm not understanding.
Needs to have numbering for which comes first for body location

6 - What is contact? No order, any can come first.

7.7 - Finger bends (ie no order)?No order, any can come first.

8 - Movement? Vertical, then Horizontal, then Arc - up / down, up
      / abaxo + rotation, then up / down bow 
after / below + arc rotation, face bow, face bow + rotation

Need to define which come first within the vertical, and which come first within the horizontal, etc.  Or just current default currently in ISWA2010
Need to define movement symbols in other planes, etc.

9 Timing.  Which comes first?

10 Faces and posture.
Not sure about this one, would like more explanation.

Also you need to output a dictionary that has, 

hand 
spelling 
sign 
Portuguese 
ASL 
english 
Quote

Do you currently have any way of keeping all this information in
      Sign Puddle?
SignWriter Studio can do 
spelling
sign-LIBRAS
Portuguese
English
Source

I was hoping to add a second SignLanguage to do a dictionary with
      two sign languages but I haven't programmed that yet.

I am still working on finalizing the output for the dictionary. 
      So I am looking for your input whether you use it or not.

Please fill me in where I am lacking and correct me where I am
      wrong.

Regards,

Jonathan

On 8/12/2014 4:47 PM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:

Hi Charles,
>    I enjoyed your symposium “Ordering Signs in Dictionaries” http://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0010.htmlgro
> I was wondering if Steve and Val had been able to find you a solution.  Val mentioned that she thought that Steve would have an easy way for you to do your sorting.
>
>
>I would like to implement a sorting algorithm for SignWriter
      Studio as I haven't implemented any yet and I am starting to
      produce a Honduran Sign Language dictionary.  
>
>
>I understood how you are doing the ordering comparing hand shapes,
      comparing rotations, comparing facings, comparing facial areas,
      etc.  I like it very much.
>
>
>A couple things I wanted to ask.
>
>For your algorithm to work properly does the sign sequence of a
      sign need to be filled out?  I am getting the impression that your
      sorting could sort dictionaries without the sign sequence, is this
      assumption correct?  Or would it sort signs according to the
      symbols in sign sequence?  It doesn't seem to take into account
      the order of the symbols in the sign sequence, is this correct?
>
>Also do you have another document comparing the other symbols like
      movement symbols, etc?  If so could you send it to me? 
>
>
>Thanks
>
> 
>-- 
>
 email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
         joyoduncan at gmail.com
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442 
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter Studio

-- 

 email: duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca
         joyoduncan at gmail.com
Cel Honduras: (504)3141-1171
Tel USA: (347)875-8442 
Skype: yojoduncan

SignWriter Studio

________________________________________________ 
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION 
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org 
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1

________________________________________________ 
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION 
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org 
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist 
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: hbdiedbb.png
Type: image/png
Size: 12920 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: gjefgaae.png
Type: image/png
Size: 24060 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0001.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: iedebjgb.png
Type: image/png
Size: 17483 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0002.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ddcgejbf.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1130 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0003.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: idcjdadd.png
Type: image/png
Size: 6451 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0004.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: gjicabcb.png
Type: image/png
Size: 2078 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0005.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: gciabjeb.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1045 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0006.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: cadhiccc.png
Type: image/png
Size: 5444 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0007.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: aghhedeg.png
Type: image/png
Size: 3969 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0008.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: jacefbja.png
Type: image/png
Size: 2353 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0009.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: gbidcjaj.png
Type: image/png
Size: 4538 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0010.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: fajijfeh.png
Type: image/png
Size: 3999 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0011.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ATT00001
Type: image/png
Size: 1136 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0012.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: bgecaaec.png
Type: image/png
Size: 1136 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/sw-l/attachments/20140813/87b6f726/attachment-0013.png>