Bonsoir Yosra,
(English follows)
pourriez-vous nous dire en détails quelles sont les informations qui manquent dans les dictionnaires de sign puddle qui sont nécessaires à l'avatar.
Nous pourrions faire un effort pour qu'elles soient disponibles à l'avenir.
J'ai une suggestion pour l'avenir... Serait-il possible d'avoir des avatars qui représentent des enfants (garçon et fille). Cela pourrait peut-être devenir un atout pour l'enseignement et éventuellement pour les communications en général des enfants. Ils pourraient s'identifier aux personnages.
André Lemyre
---
Please let us know which information is missing in sign puddle, so we can make an effort to provide them.
It may be interesting to have avatars that represents children (boy and girl). Children could identify themselves with the characters.
AL
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 10:58:02 +0100
From: yosrabouzid at HOTMAIL.FR
Subject: Re: Animations to teach signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Bonjour Jonathan,En fait, j'ai choisi le format SWML comme input à notre système car il m'offre des informations concernat les coordonnées, le high et le width de chaque glyph dans le pictograph. Ces informations sont très utiles pour:- la détermination du type de signe (par exemple il est symétrique ou non )- ainsi que l'identification des positions initiales des mains dans le signe.J'ai pas encore traiter les autres formats disponibles mais si ils m'offrent les même informations fournies par le SWML pourquoi pas.
Le traitement du SWML se fait automatiquement, n'y a aucune intervention manuelleLa première étape consiste à mettre les symboles dans le bon ordre de lecture en se basant sur un ensemble de règles inspirées de SignSpelling rules.La deuxième étape consiste à identifier les informations manquantes comme l'emplacement du premier handshape ainsi que les positions de contact sur le corps du signeur, en vue de générer une représentation linguistique précise et claire du signe. Un autre ensemble de règles a été adopté ici pour gérer le paramètre de location. Mais, comme j'ai déjà mentionné dans l'article, dans certains cas il est impossible de déterminer les positions exactes de contact lorsque deux symboles de contact ou plus sont intégrés dans la notation. Prenons comme exemple le ASL notation de "improve", "us" et "prince". On est obligé ici d'ajouter " the detailed location symboles" dans le fichier SWML dés le début pour avoir des animations correctes.La troisième étape du système a été consacrée à la conversion automatique de le représentation obtenue en SMLVous trouverez ci-joint les fichiers SML et SWML de deux exemples de signe simple "politics" et complexe "export"
Concernant votre dernière question, je ne peux pas vous donner une réponse précise car j'ai pas encore traiter des phrases en SW. Mais il peut être possible d'animer un avatar à partir d'un Gif animé puisqu'il est représenté par une série de notations de SW.
Bonne journée,Yosra
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 13:33:12 -0600
From: duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
Subject: Re: FW: Animations to teach signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Bonjour Yosra Bouzid,
Je viens de jetter un coup d'oeil à http://tiger.uvt.nl/pdf/papers/bouzid.pdf
J'ai quelques questions.
Utilisez-vous encore SWML (SignWriting Markup Language) comme point
de départ du mouvement de l'avatar? Avez-vous été en mesure
d'utiliser SPML ou le BSW, CSW, KSW ou formats FSW disponible dans
SignPuddle?
Quelles étapes manuelles avez vous besoin d'exécuter pour ajouter
l'informations manquantes nécessaires pour animer l'avatar?
Pourriez-vous s'il vous plaît nous donner des comparaisons d'un
exemple simple et d'une plus complexe de SWML et du SML Sign
Modeling Language) résultant et possiblement les étapes nécessaires
pour se rendre du SWML inicial au SML final? Avez-vous été en mesure
d'automatiser une certaine partie?
Pensez-vous que si nous aurions chaque trame du GIF animée en
SignWriting, ca nous ferait la génération de SML plus facile ou plus
rapide? Ou que nous pourrions tirer tout autre avantage quelconque
de cela pour animer l'avatar?
Cordialement,
Jonathan
Hello Yosra Bouzid,
I just had a quick look at http://tiger.uvt.nl/pdf/papers/bouzid.pdf
. I have a few questions.
Are you still using SWML (SignWriting Markup Language) as a starting
point for the avatar movement? Have you been able to use SPML or
the BSW, CSW, KSW or FSW formats available in SignPuddle?
What manual steps are required to add the missing information needed
to animate the avatar? Could you please give a simple example and a
more complex one comparing the SWML and the resulting SML (Sign
Modeling Language) and possibly the steps required to get from the
original SWML to the final SML? How much have you been able to
automate some of it?
Do you think that if we had the each frame of the animated GIF in
SignWriting, it would make the generation of SML easier or faster?
Or that we could draw any other advantage from this to animate the
avatar?
Regards,
Jonathan
On 1/9/2014 4:04 PM, yosra bouzid
wrote:
Bonjour André et tous les membres de SignWriting List,
je voudrais tout d'abord vous féliciter pour le travail
réalisé
C'est fascinant de voir ces dessins s'animer en
utilisant uniquement des symboles de SignWriting!
En fait, notre approche
repose sur l'utilisation d'un agent virtuel pour
reproduire fidèlement les gestes manuels et non manuels
représentés dans une notation de SignWriting.
Par exemple, vous trouverez ci-joint des animations
générées à partir des transcriptions des signes:
- désolé en langue des signes tunisienne
- deaf en langue des signes américaine
- oiseau en langue des signes française
(je suis désolée car les séquences vidéo ne sont pas de
bonne qualité)
(note: je vais les envoyer une par une pour ne pas
avoir des problèmes de réception)
Nous avons converti jusqu'à présent plus de 1000
notations et nous allons créer très prochainement
un site web tuniSigner pour
permettre aux participants d'évaluer la qualité des
animations produites
Hello André and all the SignWriting List members,
First of all, I want to congratulate you on the
excellent job you did
It is amazing to see an animated gif from SignWriting
symbols !!
In fact, our work aims to interpret a SignWriting
notation through a 3D virtual signer able to perform
faithfully the exact gestures represented in the
notation.
For example, you will find attached the generated
animations from the following transcriptions:
- sorry (désolé) in Tunisian Sign Lnaguage
- Deaf in American Sign Language
- bird (oiseau) in French sign language
( I 'm sorry because the video is not of good
quality)
(I'll send the video
sequences one by
one for not receiving error notification in delivering
message)
Our system has converted until now more than 1000
notations and we aim to create, very soon, our proper
website tuniSigner to allow participants to evaluate the
quality of the produced animations
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 12:25:45
-0500
From: andre-andre at HOTMAIL.CA
Subject: Re: Animations to teach signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Bonjour Mohamed JEMNI,
Bonjour Yosra BOUZID,
il y a présentement une discussion sur le forum général
de SignWriting sur la pertinence et la faisabilité
d'utiliser des animations en format gif pour enseigner
l'écriture de langue signées. Ces animations mettaient
en mouvement les symboles standard de SignWriting.
Une extension de cette idée est d'intégrer ces
animations dans les dictionnaires de SignWriting comme
sign puddle. Il serait alors possible de traduire
automatiquement de longs textes en mode animation. Ce
concept est très proche de l'avatar que vous avez
développé.
Pourriez-vous vous joindre à nous pour cette réflexion?
Merci
André Lemyre
En attachement vous trouverez les discussions
précédentes et un exemple d'animation.
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014
07:42:43 -0600
From: duncanjonathan at YAHOO.CA
Subject: Re: Animations to teach signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Hi Andre,
One of the great chanllenges of using the current
software for animated GIFs is lining up one frame with
the next.
Your idea of all frames having head, is a good idea
for a center, but if each GIF frame is a different
size it will only be a little help for aligning them.
A solution with a fixed width and height per animation
would be better (it could be different from one
animation to another).
I was thinking on way would be to make a vertical line
and a horizontal line in the SignWriting as a
reference. It would be have to be big enough to fit
all the animation we would want to write. All frames
would come out the same size and everything would be
referent (centered) to these lines.
M596x597S37a00403x404S37a00403x452S37a00403x500S37a00403x548S37a0e404x595S37a0e452x595S37a0e500x595S37a0e548x595
The down side is that you would have to manually take
out the lines afterwards frame by frame.
Or
In SignWriter Studio these lines could even be white
just like the background. (Sorry no support for
transparencies in SignWriter Studio at this time).
Then with a graphics program that does transparencies
change the white to transparent. Just don't use the
same white (maybe an offwhite) for the hands as for
the background and the lines.
Jonathan
On 1/8/2014 12:02 PM,
André L wrote:
Such an editor would take existing
signs and allow manipulating them.
Example: Selecting a vertical hand would allow to
puting it horizontal to illustrate a rotation...
Such software should not be coded too soon. People
need to explore the possibilities. The proof of
concept is starting.
This is my current process.
1- Import a dictionary in sign writer studio.
2- Select a sign.
3-Create a copy of the sign.
4-Edit the sign by selecting symbols to duplicate
or reposition.
5-If necessary add a head. This defines where the
hands will be located.
6-Copy paste an image of signwriter studio in
pain.
7-Resize the paint display.
-----transparency setting would come here----
8-Create several copies of the written sign.
9-Edit each file with the same name and a counter
(file 0 is the original written sign with extra
transition symbols). The head is my origin. It
should not move.
10-Feed the files in a gif animator.
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2014
09:43:06 -0800
From: freddyfingaz83 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: Animations to teach signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Yes, it sound like we will
need to developing "Animated
Signwriting Creator" software where it
automatically set up rules and grids
template screen to positioning loops
cycle for us to follow to prevent
errors. And capacity to format
transparent background
Dale Archuleta
Sent from Yahoo Mail
on Android
From:
André L <andre-andre at HOTMAIL.CA>;
To:
<SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>;
Subject:
Re: Animations to teach signwriting
Sent:
Wed, Jan 8, 2014 5:25:35 PM
I agree with you
that mixing signwriting and
videos will become an habit in
some future. The need cannot be
delayed, we would have to redo
much work.
The template window frame for
the gif may be big. We must
allow the character to extend
left and right arms. That would
make a huge white square on top
of a video. Transparency would
hide less of the content.
Another example would be
animated cartoons.
André Lemyre
Date:
Wed, 8 Jan 2014 07:31:07 -0800
From: freddyfingaz83 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re: Animations to
teach signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Andre
Lemyre
There are
several reasons why
transparent
background is needed
but it is not
required. One of
examples, if I want
to put animated
signwriting on the
pictures or videos
on fixed opacity
transparent
background to easy
on eyes comfort to
reading without
colors inpurterted
matched colors. It
would be lot of work
if I have to modify
GIFS personally. I'm
sure some of people
has other reasons.
Dale
Archuleta
Sent
from Yahoo Mail on
Android
From: André L <andre-andre at HOTMAIL.CA>;
To:
<SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>;
Subject:
Re: Animations to
teach signwriting
Sent:
Wed, Jan 8, 2014
12:15:57 PM
Do
you have an
example of a
need to
overlay a sign
to something
else?
I think that I
saw a free gif
animator 10
years ago that
supported
transparent
beackground.
I will do a
research.
André Lemyre
Date:
Tue, 7 Jan
2014 21:03:14
-0800
From: freddyfingaz83 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re:
Animations to
teach
signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
Hello
I
understood
most Editors
programs
doesn't
supports
transparent
backgrounds. I
feel its very
important to
have entirely
transparent
background
because it's
able to
overlays
anything
without
modification.
Dale
Archuleta
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From:
André L <andre-andre at HOTMAIL.CA>;
To:
<SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>;
Subject:
Re:
Animations to
teach
signwriting
Sent:
Wed, Jan
8, 2014
4:23:30 AM
Hello,
I
agree with a
reserve.
We may want
the white
surfaces of
the hands and
the face to
remain white
if we display
the animation
on a coloured
background.
Also, in my
first
attempts I
used Microsoft
paint, which
does not
support
transparent
background.
Considering
that dictionnaries
have between
1000 and 5000
words, and
there are
several
contributors,
we need to
ensure ease of
creation to
make this
project grow.
Standards will
be important
to avoid
redoing the
work when
someone finds
a better way
to proceed.
Also, I will
contact soon
the tunisian
team who
worked on an
avatar that
translates SignWriting
in a 3D
animation. I
would start
with Yosra
Bouzid and
Mohamed Jemni.
http://tiger.uvt.nl/pdf/papers/bouzid.pdf
http://www.utic.rnu.tn/francais/websign.html
Conceptually,
our doing gif
animation is a
subset of what
the avatar
does in an
automated
manner. The
avatar may be
able to write
the gif
animations in
an automated
manner on a
large scale.
I such
scenario would
happen, our
best input may
become to
increase the
dictionnaries
size to "feed"
the avatar or
to help it
with
directional
words
(example: I
give you, you
give me).
Concertation
will be
important
before going
any further.
André
Lemyre
Date:
Tue, 7 Jan
2014 19:39:37
-0800
From: freddyfingaz83 at YAHOO.COM
Subject: Re:
Animations to
teach
signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
I
also agreed
rules needs to
be applied
before
processing the
animated
dictionary.
Such as size,
resolute,
aligned
positioning,
etc... I would
like offer to
add other
rule. All GIFS
should have
transparent
backgrounds.
In a case, we
will not need
to reformat
entire
dictionary in
future use.
Dale
Archuleta
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From:
André L <andre-andre at HOTMAIL.CA>;
To:
<SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>;
Subject:
Re:
Animations to
teach
signwriting
Sent:
Tue, Jan
7, 2014
1:57:39 AM
Hello
Jonathan and
Valerie,
I would prefer
to have the
animations with
the regular
dictionaries ,
just like the
optional illustration
or video but
distinct.
In a distant
future, the
translate
feature could
concatenate
the animations
in long
stories.
I will spend
some time
preparing
samples of
animations to
see how
symbols could
be used (good
and bad
examples). I
will provide
several
alternatives
for people to
compare. I
will make a
document to
open a
discussion
establish some
standards (not
my personal
preferences).
We do not want
an animation
of several
words being
misaligned,
shrinking and
growing with
blinking
fuzzy heads
with several
file formats
and
resolution.
We will need
the opinion of
Deaf people,
programmers,
teachers,
SignWriters,
children and
teenagers for
an acceptance
test. Speed
will be an
issue, I
expect Deaf
people and
fluent
signwriters to
prefer fast
videos (i.e.
at a signing
speed) while
beginners will
be lost.
André Lemyre
Date:
Mon, 6 Jan
2014 17:34:07
-0800
From: signwriting at MAC.COM
Subject: Re:
Animations to
teach
signwriting
To: SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU
SignWriting
List
January
6, 2014
Thank
you, Jonathan!
Val ;-)
——
On Jan 6,
2014, at 4:27
PM, Jonathan
Duncan <duncanjonathan at yahoo.ca>
wrote:
Hi Val,
With a few
small
modifications
SignWriter
Studio should
be able to
store and
display
animated
GIFs. Sounds
like an
exciting
project!! :-)
I would be
glad to update
SignWriter
Studio so that
it have the
animations.
Jonathan
On
1/6/2014 4:01
PM, Valerie
Sutton wrote:
SignWriting
List
January
6, 2014
Hello
André!
Thank you
for this
message and
for the
attached
PowerPoint -
It is good to
know that
PowerPoint can
accept
animated GIFs.
It looks
great!
I agree
that animated
SignWriting is
valuable as an
educational
tool…I think
others agree
too -
Would
you, or anyone
else, be
interested in
working on a
new project…an
Animated
SignWriting
Dictionary on
the web?
Take a
look at this
web page:
http://www.movementwriting.org/animation/sgn-US/
It is a
simple page
that shows the
sign written
in
SignWriting,
and to the
right of the
sign, is the
animated
version of it…
We could
have an entire
site devoted
to this
Animated
SignWriting
Dictionary and
Animated
SignWriting
Literature
idea…
It could
be a relaxed
project for
fun with no
deadlines or
any pressure
at all (I do
not like
deadlines or
pressure ;-)
Just
whenever the
whim hits, do
a few
animations,
and save them
in a file.
Then we can
post them in a
new site...
The
project could
be done for
any sign
language, and
essentially be
like a
SignPuddle
Online but for
animated signs
-
And that
brings up the
next
question….Steve
and
Jonathan…could
SignPuddle and
SignWriter
Studio store
animated GIFs?
Val ;-)
-------
On Jan 6,
2014, at 9:50
AM, André L
<andre-andre at hotmail.ca> wrote:
Hello,
Animations
might be an
intuitive way
to teach
signwriting to
deaf children.
It uses their
knowledge of
sign language.
The movements
make the
writing more
intuitive,
closer to
their
experience.
There are less
symbols to
read at once.
It is easy to
display on a
screen, a
computer or on
paper.
A teacher can
write on a
slide with the
mouse during
the class.
It is possible
to create a
power point
show (does not
require power
point to be
displayed).
Here is an
example of one
animated
word. It
could be a
sentence, a
small movie...
André Lemyre
________________________________________________
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
________________________________________________
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
________________________________________________
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org
Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
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