[Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space

Fri Apr 16 18:12:19 UTC 2021

Hello Adam,

I did not get your email from SwignWriting list. But, I only got one email
from Steve.

I write this. I believe that the palm is facing the chest. But you believe
that the palm is facing up. I learn about it.

I believe that the palm is facing up below.

I think that many signwritters believe that the palm is facing up above.

I hope that I will get other emails from SignWring list.

Best regards,

André

De :  Stephen Slevinski <slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET>
Répondre à :  "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages"
<SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
Date :  Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500
À :  <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
Objet :  Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space

 Hi Jonathan,

 SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry
process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images.
 http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en

 This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2"
 Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5.
 Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2

 This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text.
 Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds
formatting.

 If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with
understandable plain-text.

 I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol
size.

 -Steve

On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:

>   
> 
> Hi Adam,
>  
> 
>     Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the
> existing fonts.
>  
> 
> If you go to 
>  
>  
> 
> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en
>  
> 
> And click on QuickSignEditor,
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
> You can change the size of the symbols.  It uses the styling portion of the
> FSW that Steve and I created together.
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Use minus in the circle button.
>  
> 
>  
> 
> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not.
>  
> 
> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of
> SignMaker I have it hosted in.
>  
> 
> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more
> control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in
> SignPuddle.
>  
> 
> Steve,  what is your take on this subject?
>  
> 
> Regards,
>  
> 
> Jonathan
>  
>  
> 
> 
>  
>  
> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote:
>  
>  
>>   Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions.
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> Cherie, I agree that ³other² team is still in neutral space, only farther
>> away, while ³my² team is closer to my chest. While I don¹t see ³my² team as
>> actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol.
>> Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that
>> the sign is at or near the chest?
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth,
>> but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means
>> the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the
>> palm facings would would be as the following:
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side
>> view would be easier for the palm facings.
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> However, I don¹t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in
>> such rare cases.
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to
>> show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the
>> viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together.
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> I am not sure how I would write the ³other² team¹s score to clearly show the
>> depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be
>> ³smaller² to show it is farther away, but I¹m not sure if that is practical
>> either. (Just a thought, wouldn¹t that just be handled by the font much like
>> superscripts and subscripts? This doesn¹t actually ³create² more symbols when
>> this is done. HmmŠ)
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>>  Adam 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>>  
>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren
>>> <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my
>>> team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.  Perhaps a touch
>>> symbol for the nearer "my team"?
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault
>>> <atg at videotron.ca> wrote:
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Hello Adaame and Val,
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> I write this:
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Best regards,
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> André
>>>   
>>> De :  Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>
>>>  Répondre à :  "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages"
>>> <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>>>  Date :  Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700
>>>  À :  <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
>>>  Objet :  Re: Placement of Signs in Space
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I
>>> don¹t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said,
>>> this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-)
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball
>>> teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks.
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  <Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png>
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the
>>> shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other
>>> number doesn¹t have the concept of being away from the body as it is
>>> written.
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> As for the concepts of ³teams², ASL makes use of placing concepts in
>>> specific locations all the time. It isn¹t limited to names of teams. That is
>>> the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people
>>> to have their preferred teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes
>>> into play.
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> <namesign.png>
>>>  Adam
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton
>>>> <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> April 15, 2021
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message,
>>>> Adam ;-)
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write ³teams² in sign
>>>> language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting?
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could
>>>> explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by ³teams²? Is it for
>>>> writing some kind of a game in ASL?
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and
>>>> weight-shifting to the ³right of center² and to the ³left of center². They
>>>> are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is ³far in front² and one that is ³close
>>>> to the chest² - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we
>>>> started to write those differences in ³depth² with Movement Symbols. We
>>>> actually DID have a way to write ³depth² with hand symbols years ago, in
>>>> the 1980s.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting,
>>>> when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3
>>>> sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the ³middle
>>>> neutral space², the smaller version of the symbol means ³far away from the
>>>> chest² and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on
>>>> art perspectives. Further away is always smaller.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it
>>>> later.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not
>>>> necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real
>>>> problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea
>>>> of "far being smaller" and ³close being larger² was ignored and we have one
>>>> set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough!
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> So how do we see ³depth² in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some
>>>> standardized spellings have helped.
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have
>>>> written - many thanks!
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> ----------
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I
>>>>> never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing
>>>>> the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that
>>>>> location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the
>>>>> left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who
>>>>> has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for ³my team² vs ³your
>>>>> team². If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means
>>>>> ³I have 4 and you have 5.² When I tried to write this, I wrote the
>>>>> shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn¹t really seem
>>>>> like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was
>>>>> signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when
>>>>> signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me
>>>>> thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear
>>>>> and didn¹t have to be assumed. Is there?
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>>  Adam
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> ____________
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
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>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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>>>  
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
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>>> 
>>>  Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  ________________________________________________
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1<Screen Shot
>>> 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png><namesign.png>
>>>  
>>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  ________________________________________________
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>  
>> 
>>  Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>  
>> 
>>  Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>  
>> 
>>  SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>  
>> 
>>  Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>  
>  ________________________________________________
> 
>  
>  
> 
>  SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>  
> 
>  Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>  
> 
>  Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>  
> 
>  SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>  
> 
>  Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>  

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
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