[Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space

Adam Frost icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM
Fri Apr 16 18:18:03 UTC 2021 

You didn’t get me email? Odd. Maybe it went into spam? You can always check the archive online to be sure. 

http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>

I could be wrong about the palm facing from the top view. That is what I was checking to be sure. ;-)


Adam

> On Apr 16, 2021, at 11:12 AM, André Thibeault <atg at VIDEOTRON.CA> wrote:
> 
> Hello Adam,
> 
> I did not get your email from SwignWriting list. But, I only got one email from Steve.
> 
> I write this. I believe that the palm is facing the chest. But you believe that the palm is facing up. I learn about it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that the palm is facing up below.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that many signwritters believe that the palm is facing up above.
> 
> I hope that I will get other emails from SignWring list.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> André
> 
> De : Stephen Slevinski <slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET <mailto:slevin at SIGNPUDDLE.NET>>
> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
> Date : Fri, 16 Apr 2021 11:50:48 -0500
> À : <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
> Objet : Re: [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space
> 
> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> SignMaker 2017 supports the styling string, but it is a manual entry process and only for creating PNG or SVG output images.
> http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en <http://signbank.org/signmaker/#?ui=en>
> 
> <baglbilanghogejj.png>
> 
> This example uses a styling string of "--Z01,0.5Z03,2"
> Z01,0.5 = Zoom for first symbol of 0.5.
> Z03,2 = Zoom for third symbol of 2
> 
> This topic gets into the difference between plain-text and rich-text.
> Oversimplified, plain-text focuses on meaning while rich-text adds formatting.
> 
> If you take away formatting from rich-text, you should be left with understandable plain-text.
> 
> I believe a sign should be understandable without differences in symbol size.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/16/21 10:02 AM, Jonathan Duncan wrote:
>> Hi Adam,
>>     Actually it is presently possible to write smaller hand shapes with the existing fonts.
>> If you go to 
>> https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en <https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/signmaker/#?ui=en>
>> And click on QuickSignEditor, 
>> <gjpoiddbedboknkh.png>
>> You can change the size of the symbols.  It uses the styling portion of the FSW that Steve and I created together.
>> <pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png>
>> Use minus in the circle button.
>> <babilhopiflhdnaa.png>
>> I'm don't know if any of the other editors can change the symbol size or not.
>> For some reason, the symbol styling isn't coming across to the version of SignMaker I have it hosted in.
>> So the technology is there, it's probably just a matter of adding a few more control to the editors for you to actually be able to do it and save it in SignPuddle.
>> Steve,  what is your take on this subject?
>> Regards,
>> Jonathan
>> 
>> On 4/16/2021 8:31 AM, Adam Frost wrote:
>>> Thank you Cherie and André for your suggestions.
>>> 
>>> Cherie, I agree that “other” team is still in neutral space, only farther away, while “my” team is closer to my chest. While I don’t see “my” team as actually touching my chest, I can see your suggestion for the touch symbol. Do you think that would make more sense than the shoulder line to imply that the sign is at or near the chest?
>>> 
>>> André, your overhead view does make sense as being useful for showing depth, but the palm facing seems to be confusing. As you had it written, it means the palm is facing up rather than facing the chest. Unless I am wrong, the palm facings would would be as the following:
>>> 
>>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png>
>>> 
>>> If changing the view would make depth easier to see, I think using the side view would be easier for the palm facings.
>>> 
>>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png>
>>> 
>>> However, I don’t know if I like changing the viewpoint in everyday writing in such rare cases.
>>> 
>>> However, I did notice that André combined the two scores into one sign to show the depth. I think that this would work (without having to change the viewpoint at all) only if both numbers are stated together.
>>> 
>>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png>
>>> 
>>> I am not sure how I would write the “other” team’s score to clearly show the depth without the viewpoint change. I do like the idea of having it be “smaller” to show it is farther away, but I’m not sure if that is practical either. (Just a thought, wouldn’t that just be handled by the font much like superscripts and subscripts? This doesn’t actually “create” more symbols when this is done. Hmm…)
>>> 
>>> <namesign.png>
>>> Adam
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 16, 2021, at 3:23 AM, Cherie Wren <000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:000000111c1a7803-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> when I sign two team scores, its usually one nearly touching my chest (my team) and one farther away... but still in neutral space.  Perhaps a touch symbol for the nearer "my team"?
>>>> 
>>>> On Thursday, April 15, 2021, 10:39:35 PM EDT, André Thibeault <atg at videotron.ca <mailto:atg at videotron.ca>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello Adaame and Val,
>>>> 
>>>> I write this:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> André
>>>> De : Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>>
>>>> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
>>>> Date : Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:40:47 -0700
>>>> À : <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>>
>>>> Objet : Re: Placement of Signs in Space
>>>> 
>>>> I thought I recall something about the sizing being used for depth, but I don’t think that it would be necessary for everyday writing. Like I said, this situation rarely comes up for me. ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> Here is a screen capture of what I wrote. It is talking about two baseball teams: The Nationals and the Diamondbacks.
>>>> 
>>>> <Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png>
>>>> 
>>>> Notice the last two signs are supposed to have the depth. I feel that the shoulder line shows the number being closer to the body, but the other number doesn’t have the concept of being away from the body as it is written.
>>>> 
>>>> As for the concepts of “teams”, ASL makes use of placing concepts in specific locations all the time. It isn’t limited to names of teams. That is the reason the lanes work so well for this. However, it is common for people to have their preferred                                     teams in sports, so that is where the depth comes into play.
>>>> 
>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>> Adam
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU <mailto:0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>> April 15, 2021
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List, and thank you for this message, Adam ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of course this sounds like a very useful way to write “teams” in sign language, but can you show us written examples in SignWriting?
>>>>> 
>>>>> And since I am not a teacher of a classroom of ASL signers, maybe you could explain to me (and all of us) - what do you mean by “teams”? Is it for writing some kind of a game in ASL?
>>>>> 
>>>>> But to answer your question - the Lanes show us spatial comparisons and weight-shifting to the “right of center” and to the “left of center”. They are invaluable for writing spatial comparisons in sign languages.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Technically there is a Lane that is “far in front” and one that is “close to the chest” - and one that is neutral in signing space - but over time we started to write those differences in “depth” with Movement Symbols. We actually DID have a way to write “depth” with hand symbols years ago, in the 1980s.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This was a technique that really worked in the early days of SignWriting, when we were writing sign language by hand with ink pens. There were 3 sizes of hand symbols - the normal size we use everyday is the “middle neutral space”, the smaller version of the symbol means “far away from the chest” and the larger symbol means closer to the chest. This is based on art perspectives. Further away is always smaller.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have an article about this somewhere - I will try to find it and post it later.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But, as time went by, it seemed like too much information that was not necessary for everyday writing, and for computer symbol sets, it was a real problem because it would double or triple the amount of symbols so the idea of "far being smaller" and “close being larger” was ignored and we have one set of symbols at one size for everything. The ISWA 2010 is large enough!
>>>>> 
>>>>> So how do we see “depth” in everyday writing? Movement Symbols and some standardized spellings have helped.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But now - Adam - please post some SignWriting showing us what you have written - many thanks!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----------
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I was doing some writing in SignWriting and came across an issue that I never really thought of in the past. In ASL, scores can be done by placing the teams in a location and then giving the numbers of the score in that location. For example, I can have one team on the right and another on the left. If I sign 4 on the right and then 5 on the left, it clearly says who has what score. This is easily done using the lanes in SignWriting.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The issue came into play when it was giving scores for “my team” vs “your team”. If I signed 4 near my chest and then 5 away from me, it would means “I have 4 and you have 5.” When I tried to write this, I wrote the shoulder line over 4 and wrote 5 as I do normally. This didn’t really seem like an issue to me until I had a friend asked me how I knew that 5 was signed away from my body rather than just in the neutral location when signing 5 on its own. I had said I just assumed it, but that got me thinking if there was a simple way to write it so that it would be clear and didn’t have to be assumed. Is there?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ____________
>>>>> 
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> 
>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>>> 
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1><Screen Shot 2021-04-15 at 6.32.37 PM.png><namesign.png>
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1>________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1> <baglbilanghogejj.png><gjpoiddbedboknkh.png><pekkdjpadhklhcfe.png><babilhopiflhdnaa.png><Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.20.40 AM.png><Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.22.39 AM.png><Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 7.25.31 AM.png><namesign.png>


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