[Sw-l] Placement of Signs in Space

Thu Apr 22 22:48:00 UTC 2021

SignWriting List
April 22, 2021

I love this discussion on viewpoints. Back when we were first developing Movement Writing in the 1970’s, I was hopeful we could give the writer a choice of several viewpoints depending on the need of the document, and that all symbols could be used interchangeably from viewpoint to viewpoint. Expressive Viewpoint won because writers expressed that they wanted that viewpoint more than any other. But Receptive is also a fully-developed viewpoint that might be useful for some computer video graphics since when we watch videos we are facing the signer, not standing behind the signer like in Expressive. The Side Wall, Diagonal and Top Views are only partially developed. The Top View is used, as Kacio said, when there is an occasional need for clarity.

If we really had a fully-developed Top View, then the Index Finger, for the number 1 in ASL, would be a dot for viewing the fingertip pointing to the ceiling, since the reader is sitting on the ceiling looking down at the signers head ;-) I don’t think most people would want to think of all the fingertips as dots as they are pointing to the ceiling! That is why using the Head Top View as a marker, and then the rest of the writing in the standard Expressive, is much better and it shows depth very well.

The Movement Arrows work best for me, if you do not want to use the Top View of the Head.

Regarding your lines - the reason that feels good, I assume, is that the longer one is like a Horizon Line, which we use for some Movement Symbols that curve towards the Horizon, which is far away. The 4-hand is further away and therefore hitting the Horizon.

Notice how the lines you have placed in this example, are using longer and shorter sizes ;-). So size is still being used…

And yes, Stefan Woehrmann developed a way to teach proper names to his Deaf students. Any sign that had an underline was the name of a person I believe - or maybe a proper noun? Is that correct, Stefan?

Anyway, thanks for the ideas and thank you for the discussion -

Val ;-)

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> On Apr 22, 2021, at 1:30 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> I’m not sure about this approach of showing depth as it uses symbols for a new purpose. It came about as I was explaining the idea of sizing to show depth to another writer. The idea is that the line under the sign is longer for signs that are closer and shorter for signs that are farther. One advantage is that it is simple while staying in Front View and doesn’t have the idea of being in Top View without actually switching to it. My guess is that this would only be necessary when signs are made in depth without traveling to get into that depth, which would be simple enough to show with movement arrows.
> 
> 
> 
> If I recall correctly, the line under the sign has been purposed to be a way of marking proper names. By Stefan, I believe. I’ve never felt the need to include that type of information myself, but this might conflict with that idea. Hmm...
> 
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG <mailto:sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>> wrote:
>> 
>> SignWrting List
>> April 22, 2021
>> 
>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone -
>> 
>> Thank you for your messages and diagrams about "writing depth”. What wonderful messages you all posted, There are so many ways to write this...
>> 
>> And thank you Adam, for the two videos posted yesterday. They helped me a lot ;-)
>> 
>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers.
>> 
>> The Front View also works with the Shoulder Line. It is clear that the second handshape is “far away” because of the Movement Arrow putting it there at the end of the movement. See diagram:
>> 
>> <3 Ways To Write Depth v1.jpg>
>> 
>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well.
>> 
>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”.
>> 
>> <part1.708400B8.png>
>> 
>> 
>> This would work well with video transcription, such as Amit Moryossef’s amazing software representation of a stick figure on a video:
>> 
>> <Amit Moryossef.png>
>> 
>> https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ <https://youtu.be/pCKRWSNIaNQ>
>> 
>> 
>> So originally, the general “Movement Writing” system was designed without mixing viewpoints within one sign. 
>> 
>> I want to thank Steve Slevinski for his posting about CSS Styling strings and the fact that Steve’s styling strings make it possible in software to change the size of symbols, and thank you Steve, for SignMaker 2017 <https://signbank.org/signmaker.html>  and thank you, Jonathan, for the Quick SignEditor <https://jonathandduncan.github.io/QuickSignEditor/> programs that are implementing those styling strings right now. I am grateful for your efforts and I hope to use the size differences now to write a technical document about these issues.
>> 
>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text.
>> 
>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations.
>> 
>> I have more to share later - hope you all can get up from your computers and do some exercise - it is so easy to sit for hours without realizing we need to move too!
>> 
>> Have a great day everyone -
>> 
>> Val ;-)
>> 
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> ________________________________________________
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