[Sw-l] [SPAM] Re: Placement of Signs in Space

Wed Apr 28 13:42:58 UTC 2021

Hi Val,

     Yes, that Deaf was from Honduras.

Jonathan

On 4/27/2021 11:33 PM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
> SignWriting List
> April 27, 2021
>
> Thank you, Jonathan, for discussing writing from the Side View instead 
> of the Top View. Was the Deaf writer you mentioned who wrote some 
> signs from the Side View - was he or she from Honduras? Is there 
> anyone else who writes some signs from the Side View? Can someone post 
> an example?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 27, 2021, at 8:50 PM, Jonathan Duncan 
>> <00000002a18e4451-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Val and everyone -
>>
>> It's interesting to see so many ways to do things and the combination 
>> of viewpoints that is different than the usual way of reading it.
>>
>> I personally prefer the sizes.  As it feels clear, and the way I 
>> would write it on paper if I didn't have a movement, or maybe even if 
>> I did, just to emphasize the depth.
>>
>> I really like the symbol sizes, and I've included as part of my 
>> SignWriting programs which was in 2005,  and has been able to write 
>> it to FSW since Steve and I collaborated on the styling. If my memory 
>> serves me right, it was concluded that symbol size wasn't necessary 
>> to write everyday signwriting.  And it was also much harder to size 
>> the PNGs nicely than it is to size the SVGs and Fonts we have today.
>>
>> I agree with you Steve, that it's good to have a separation between 
>> text and styling.  And if we change all the symbols by the same % 
>> then that is more of a styling than anything else, as if they are all 
>> a different size, or if the size isn't changed, it all means the 
>> same. However I do think that we should support different symbols 
>> sizes within a sign and for the meaning to depend on the size of the 
>> symbols to be able to write what Adam is signing or more exactly, 
>> similar examples which do not have movement.  Not that we would use 
>> different sizes in the all the signs but that some we can change 
>> their size to denote depth when we want to.  And it would be part of 
>> the sign and not the styling because removing the size would change 
>> the meaning of those signs.  My programs have a separate data 
>> structure with can record the size of each individual symbol, which 
>> was always lost going to FSW until we got the styling.  But is still 
>> lost on some of the other software which doesn't always permit 
>> importing some of the styling like the older SignMaker 2015.
>>
>> Of course, for the current common encodings like FSW, etc to record 
>> which symbols are not at their default size within the sign part 
>> instead of the styling, would require extending the current 
>> specifications.  Or we could agree on a basic JSON representation 
>> which is a much more flexible data structure and is the common way of 
>> sharing and storing data in almost every programming language and in 
>> many modern databases.
>>
>> I knew a deaf who wrote his notes, either expressive viewpoint from 
>> the back or expressive from the side.  I never saw him draw any from 
>> the top.  With just those two views, you could write everything 
>> without even having different types of arrows.  But it requires, 
>> stating in each sign which viewpoint is drawn.  He would change from 
>> one to the other with a quick body manikin in each sign. We see other 
>> signers more often from the side than from the top, so I think it's 
>> an easier transition to write oneself from the side than from the 
>> top.  I'm not advocating we all write like he did, but I believe that 
>> in the case that when depth isn't clear with the expressive view, 
>> like in this special case Adam is mentioning, I believe it would 
>> prefer to read it from the side view than from the expressive back view.
>>
>> When we can easily write everything we sign the way we normally sign 
>> and read it back and sign it the same again, and not feeling that we 
>> should sign something just a bit differently so that we can write it 
>> without too much trouble, then that would be a perfect writing 
>> system. And I believe that that has been and should be the goal of 
>> great sign writing systems like SignWriting.  If we can write things 
>> simply and intuitively with different size symbols instead of having 
>> to switch views to write some signs, then I believe it is improving 
>> the ease of use and the ease of adoption of SignWriting.
>>
>> But in the case of writing with software that doesn't do symbol by 
>> symbol sizes, I prefer the side view.
>>
>> Thanks for letting me share my 2cents
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> On 4/22/2021 11:13 AM, Valerie Sutton wrote:
>>> SignWrting List
>>> April 22, 2021
>>>
>>> Hello Adam, Andre, Cherie, Kacio, Steve, Jonathan and everyone -
>>>
>>> As you know, the Top View can be mixed with the Front View. The Head 
>>> in Top View establishes the “depth” but the rest of the sign .. the 
>>> hands, the movements … can be written in the Front View, placed 
>>> either near or far from the Head & body. It sounds crazy, but this 
>>> combination of viewpoints seems to be working for readers.
>>>
>>> And looking at the above diagram I can see other ways to write it 
>>> too. So there are a variety of choices. For me, the Movement Arrow 
>>> gives me the depth information, but if you do not want to use an 
>>> arrow, then the old “sizes” work very well.
>>>
>>> Originally SignWriting was designed to keep the writing ALL Front 
>>> View, using "size of symbols" to write the depth perspective of “far 
>>> away”. Smaller symbols represented “far away”.
>>>
>>> <part1.708400B8.png>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am aware of the point, that Rich Text is great for individual 
>>> documents or signs that can be captured in graphics so the 
>>> information is not lost, but in an actual symbolset, the information 
>>> of “small” vs “large” would be lost if it is just plain text.
>>>
>>> Nonetheless, I am glad to know I can access the smaller symbols in 
>>> the two programs and I plan to use it for some demonstrations.
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>>
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>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
>> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
>> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>>
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>>
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>>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org 
> <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: 
> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu 
> <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page 
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> <http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist>
>
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________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
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sutton at signwriting.org

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