[Sw-l] Between floor and wall arm rotation

Adam Frost icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM
Sun Feb 6 18:33:19 UTC 2022 

I finally found the video that I had created when Uta and I were having our discussion. (I couldn’t remember where I saved it. Ha!) I think this has the movement that we are talking about.




Adam

> On Feb 6, 2022, at 9:46 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
> 
> SignWriting List
> January 6, 2022
> 
> OK. I believe you are correct, Adam, that only the straight arrows have combinations with rotation symbols, making them one symbol to search for.
> 
> The curved arrows with rotations can be constructed with two symbols but they are not one symbol to search for. The search would require searching for two symbols.
> 
> Someday, through software development, a solution could be found that would grab all of these combination symbols and make them a unit from a software point of view so that they could be searchable as one symbol instead of two, but that is not developed right now.
> 
> So I guess a project has a choice:
> 
>  1. Write the sign accurately with two symbols combined and find a way to search for both aspects or properties. Can the program search for 2 symbols instead of one?
> 
>  2. Or write the sign differently to match the limitations of the ISWA.
> 
> Hope solutions can be found. Thanks for the fascinating discussion.
> 
> Val 
> 
> 
> -----
> 
>> On Feb 6, 2022, at 9:12 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM <mailto:icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>> wrote:
>> 
>> My first thought was to actually combine arrows like you did. If that is something that would be acceptable in the Sign2Mint project, that would be would I would suggest as it makes things the most accurate.
>> 
>> However, I was asked if it were possible to have that information within one symbol rather than two for ease in searching, which is why I went with the straight movement as those are the only symbols that are both arm traveling and arm rotation. Unless I am mistaking.
>> 
>> <namesign.png>
>> Adam
>> 
>>> On Feb 6, 2022, at 8:20 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG <mailto:sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> SignWriting List
>>> February 6, 2022
>>> 
>>> Hello SignWriting List, Adam, Uta, Carlos, and Jonathan, and everyone who is following this thread,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for the terrific input!
>>> 
>>> So from what I understand, we are talking about two different things:
>>> 
>>> 1. Writing close to what's on the video, as simple as possible for everyday reading
>>> 
>>> Or…
>>> 
>>> 2. Writing certain linguistic properties, that are not necessarily shown in the production of the sign on the video, but important to the project. 
>>> 
>>> I am so sorry if I created confusion, but I'm glad to understand the Sign2mint project.
>>> 
>>> And it has brought up this interesting topic. Searching for certain linguistic properties in a computer program is complicated.
>>> 
>>> I love your writing Adam. It's just a different sign, but if these are the properties needed for searching then it's beautifully written. Your sign shows the beginning and ending hand positions. That's very clear. And it is a straight movement diagonally forward with the rotation as it moves. It's no longer the curved movement that one sees on the video.
>>> 
>>>> <Screen Shot 2022-02-06 at 6.02.40 AM.png>
>>> 
>>> I have attached one new writing of mine, that includes the curve down, with an added twist for searching. But of course whatever is best. Just my input. Many thanks to everyone! 
>>> 
>>> <DGS_homogen4.png>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> __________
>>> 
>>>> On Feb 6, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I agree, Carlos, that writing such details is cumbersome for everyday writing. However, after talking with Uta I realize that she and her team aren’t necessarily focused on writing the language, but they are focusing on encoding and making it easily searchable for people who don’t know SignWriting – linguists and native signers alike. Their dictionary entries are accompanied with videos. So for them, the details are more important than the ease in readability.
>>>> 
>>>> I have done some digging into some of the traveling arm rotation symbols that are currently present. This is just an attempt to show how to use these symbols that are both arm traveling and arm rotation movements. I have not decided if this is the correct one for this video, but it might work.
>>>> 
>>>> <Screen Shot 2022-02-06 at 6.02.40 AM.png>
>>>> 
>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>> Adam
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Carlos Cristian Libras <carloscristianlibras at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello List,
>>>>> The moment I watched the video I understood that sign language readers can easily see the written form and complete the sign. Like a spelling agreement. As much as it is not 100% represented in writing. As many signs in Brazil are made like this (we write in a way that Brazilian readers can read easily but that a foreigner may have another interpretation of the movement).
>>>>> 
>>>>> After thinking about it, I reflected that if I were to describe the movement exactly I would separate the signal in 2 beats, writing the beginning of the movement and the end. But before I answered that, I saw the rest of the discussion and realized that Valerie Sutton had already shown exactly the format I thought:
>>>>> 
>>>>> <image.png>
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't know of any current symbols that would simplify this. But I'm looking forward to seeing Adam's response. Anyway, I believe that the two solutions above already solve the problem, I see no reason to worry.
>>>>> I advise you to write long texts that use this sign, to see how it will actually be in practice. Because it is very different to write a sign for a dictionary, putting all the details than writing a personal note text in which many details are obsolete, because what matters most is the practicality and usefulness of writing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is just an opinion.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 6, 2022 at 3:27 AM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I think the discussion came about because there is a desire to have a movement symbol that has arm rotation and arm traveling. Now that I think of it, there are some symbols that do just that. I’ll have to take a look into that tomorrow morning. :-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>> Adam
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 9:42 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SignWriting list
>>>>>> February 5, 2022
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And to answer your question, when we really are writing rotation symbols (movements that do not travel but just change palm facing), we do not have a diagonal plane version of the rotation symbols. There are only two planes to choose from for Rotation Symbols. The forearm is either parallel to the floor or parallel to the Wall - I have never seen yet a sign that is misunderstood because a diagonal forearm would change the meaning of the sign.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In this case this sign means “homogeneous" in English (in German “homogen”) and homogeneous in English means like a family or group that blends well together. The movements look a little like the sign for FAMILY in ASL, and although I know the meanings may be different, I think the curved traveling movement fits with the meaning of the sign, at least that is the way it feels to me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are always questions with Rotation Symbols and how to write them so feel free to keep asking questions - 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks so much for sharing.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --------------
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2022, at 9:27 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>>>> February 5, 2022
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hello SignWriting List, Uta and Adam,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regarding this video:
>>>>>>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/homogen/5750242766511595:730
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I agree with you, Adam, that this is a general arm movement because the arm movement TRAVELS. The hands travel from shoulder level to “in front of the chest and lower” in the second position. I would write it this way:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> <DGS_homogen1.png>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Movements that travel are curves that truly move the hands from one space to another.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rotation symbols are movements that do NOT travel. The arm stays in one place while the arm twists from one palm facing to another, while staying in place.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So if I were reading the SignWriting with the rotation symbol in this diagram, without seeing the video, I would think that the plam facing changes at shoulder level. I would not know that it traveled down lower, since it is a Rotation Symbol (which means no traveling).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Sometimes small rotation symbols are placed on top of traveling arrows - they are combined, because the writer doesn’t want to write the second position but I prefer to write the second position - at least for those who do not know the sign.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> 
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>> 
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>> 
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>> 
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>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
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>> 
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>> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org <mailto:sutton at signwriting.org>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu <mailto:sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu>
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________________________________________________


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Valerie Sutton
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sutton at signwriting.org

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