[Sw-l] ASL: Glyph for "2" and "K" handshapes

Tue Jan 4 00:02:14 UTC 2022

SignWriting List
January 3, 2022

Hello AnnaGrace, Carlos, and Adam!

What a great question to start out the New Year. Thank you, AnnaGrace, for the question, and thank you, Carlos and Adam, for your generous messages. Great answers!

From 1974-1986, SignWriting was written by hand in ASL and Danish Sign Language (DSL), before computer programs for SignWriting. The handwriting was amazing and intuitive and quite prolific. We were writing the SignWriter Newspaper by hand, a 20page tabloid size newspaper written in ASL and DSL, but the SignWriting system itself was in a great deal of flux - from 1981 til 1986 we were discussing important issues just like this one, but it was much more than just palm facing and finger standards - we were also moving from Receptive to Expressive and throwing out the stick figure and opting for writing in vertical stacks - all this took place before the standardization of computers.

Then in 1986, Richard Gleaves and I started to work together, along with the Deaf Action Committee for SignWriting (the DAC). Richard Gleaves is the developer of the first computer programs for SignWriting. First there was SignWriter //e and //c for the Apple //e and //c, and then later it was ported to MS-DOS. SignWriter DOS is a stand-alone word processor for typing SignWriting. Rich provided me with a Symbol Editor program, and he and I together, dot by dot, entered each symbol into the SignWriter program. We also had a Keyboard Editor, and developed 17 keyboard designs for 17 sign languages.

So, it was the development of SignWriter that provided us with the symbols we use today. Overtime, as we wrote and typed more and more sign languages, more standards were discussed for the development of more hand symbols. Later, after 1996, other software programs were developed and more symbols were added to the symbolset, and then, Steve Slevinski encoded the International SignWriting Alphabet (ISWA 2008 & 2010). The ISWA 2010 symbols is today’s standard symbols, and they are available for use in several computer programs, including SignMaker and SignPuddle. The symbols are in Unicode 8.

So, because of computers, we had to standardize some guidelines as to how the hand symbols are structured.

Would you all like to know what the guidelines are? There are specific reasons why the finger lines are placed where they are, based on readability…

I will show you all next message…

Val ;-)

Valerie Sutton
sutton at signwriting.org

__________

> On Jan 3, 2022, at 2:34 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Hello AnnaGrace,
> 
> Welcome to the SignWriting List. :-)
> 
> Your question is actually quite common especially with beginners. I admit I had the same thoughts when I first started learning back in 2003. (Has it really been that long!?)
> 
> Let me start with something that might help understand as I give an answer to your question. While it is true that most of the glyphs for the hands are as close as possible to being visually based, there are times when abstract rules were created to ensure that they are clear in their 2D representation as well. Because of this, there might be times when the 2D representation is counterintuitive to their actual visual aspects in 3D.
> 
> I hope the above wasn’t too confusing. Ha!
> 
> So let’s start with the glyph for “2” or “V” that you asked about. You feel that it looks more like a “K” because the index finger is vertical and the middle finger is at an angle, which are reading as being angled forward rather than to the side as if the fingers are splayed but still pointing up.
> 
> I would like to ask where is the thumb for the letter “K”? Shouldn’t it be connecting with the middle finger that is projecting forward? If that is true, then you would need to have a thumb line showing that connection with that first glyph. However, doing just that would make the glyph too cumbersome making it too difficult to read. That is why fingers projected forward are usually done as horizontal lines rather than diagonal lines. And that is why the second glyph is a “K” instead.
> 
> Here is another explanation for the reason the index finger is straight up rather than angled to the side (like most people would assume it should be, including myself when I first started learning SignWriting). When these glyphs were first created for computer use, they were created using a pixel system of filling in several squares. Because of that, lines were best visible going straight or at 45º angles. To make the “V” would require making the glyph look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> That would hurt my fingers to try and getting them to splay that far apart. Ha! So to make it look less painful, the index finger was made vertical. While it is true that we could probably make the angle less sharp now with current technology like below, it would mean a new font type and even require a conversion for already written literature as this change is not the same dimensions as the original glyph. Not to mention the changes that would be required for several other associated glyphs as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope that this helps you understand the reasoning these glyphs were designed as they were after 40+ years of writing by users of a multitude of sign languages. While it is true we try to keep things as visual as possible, sometimes it just isn’t possible when using 2D representations and limitations.
> 
> 
> Adam

__________

> On Jan 3, 2022, at 1:50 PM, Carlos Cristian Libras <carloscristianlibras at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Hi AnaGrace, how are you?
> A handshake for the entire list.
> 
> I felt free to answer you, I am also an ASL user, although my native language is Libras (Brazilian Sign Language).
> But I hope others can complement my thinking.
> 
> I started writing sign languages in 2018 and at the beginning I had a lot of questions like yours about representation of hand configurations. I saw various configurations that didn't seem to represent exactly what I saw in my hands while performing the gestures.
> But as I was writing texts, doing translations and teaching writing, I started to understand the configurations and why they are the way they are.
> Last year I had the honor of having a video call with Valerie and Adam to question a specific handset that a friend had written and I thought it was weird, I even thought it was a mistake in creating it (and similar ones).
> But with a lot of patience Adam in the presence of Valerie managed to explain to me the reason for being the way it is.
> That day my mind lit up.
> Until then I thought the SW was 100% iconic (it represents exactly as if it were a drawing), but after that day I understood that it's not that way. Although it is a visual script that resembles "drawings" just as every script in any language has its arbitrary character (representation agreement).
> My advice is to use writing in your everyday life, writing, translating, reading and so on. The more you write, the more we realize that in fact this was the best format found to represent the signals quickly and with conceptual efficiency.
> 
> 
> If you want, we can make video calls and I'll show you why each of the settings are as they are (the ones you mentioned and others that also confused me at first).
> Voluntarily, you won't need to pay anything.
> I'm deaf, I use ASL so communication will flow.
> 
> But going ahead, I can tell you that the two graphemes you mentioned are correct in SW, there is no inconsistency. It's just perspective, when you see it you'll realize that it was the best way.
> 
> If you want to chat with me privately my email - carloscristianlibras at gmail.com
> 
> I hope other SW users on this list will also respond to further clarify. I just wanted to give you my report and offer my free help.
> 
> A Brazilian hug.
> 
> _________

> On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 5:38 PM AnnaGrace Greenfield <msannagrace20 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi SignWriting community:
> 
> This is for American Sign Language users---
> 
> 1) For the handshape that resemble the number "2" or the letter "V", I tend to write:
> 
> 
> 
> 2) However, Sutton's textbooks show it as:
> 
> which, to me, looks like a "K" handshape. 
> 
> 3) According to Sutton's textbooks, "K" is represented as:
> 
> 
> Please tell me, is there any reason not to use the handshape in:
> (1) when I want to depict the "2" handshape (HS:2 or HS:V)? 
> (2) when I want to depict the "K" handshape (HS:K)?
> 
> Thanks for your input and thoughts,
> 
> AnnaGrace
> 

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