[Sw-l] The LIddell and Johnson Movement-Hold Model

Wed Jan 26 18:20:59 UTC 2022

SignWriting List
January 26, 2022

I love this answer Adam! I was wondering if you would mention the L&J model. I remember you studied with Bob Johnson. Thank you for diagramming everything here. We definitely could use more instruction on the details of using movement symbols and contact symbols in short and concise ways. Val ;-)

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> On Jan 26, 2022, at 9:52 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> I will be honest. I know the L&J Model very well and even studied under Bob Johnson, but I do not even consider it when I am writing signs when using SignWriting. I think you will find that most SignWriters don’t consider it even for those who do know it, which is not often the case that SignWriters know this model.
> 
> Having said that, I will tell you what I see in the examples that you asked about:
> 
>> - Geschwindigkeit (speed):
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Geschwindigkeit/5750242766511595:118
> 
> I see this as HMHMHMH as there are three distinct movements. I agree that it is a reduplication of a unidirectional movement, making it (HMH)M(HMH), but the SignWriting that you have on this page would actually be interpreted as bidirectional because you have both arrows. If you exclude the middle arrow, then it would mean a double outward movement rather than a outward/backward/outward movement.
> 
> The first is what was written on the page you sent, and the second is how I would have written it.
> 
> 
> 
>> - Default
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Default/8088731661663380:55
> 
> I also see this as a reduplication of unidirectional movement, so it has the same timing units as the previous example: (HMH)M(HMH). The main difference is that the final H in the unidirectional movements have contact in it where the previous example didn’t. This difference doesn’t have any affect on the timing units though.
> 
> I see that you are using the tension symbol to mean that one of the hands doesn’t move. I guess that could be beneficial for linguistic analysis. I personally would just write two contact symbol rather than any downward movements here, but I can see why it might also be important for analysis.
> 
> 
> 
>> Impuls:
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Impuls/5750242766511595:801
> 
> This is a simple unidirectional movement: HMH. If this were a reduplication, it would look like the previous example, also with two contacts. The writing of this sign, however, doesn’t follow the position of contact rule, which basically says that the handshapes should be written as they appear when they contact and then any movement symbols be written around that.
> 
> I generally wouldn’t even include the contact symbol here because it is clear by the writing, but it could be included if the writer felt it was important. 
> 
>  or 
> 
>> Daten:
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Daten/8088731661663380:40
> 
> The way your video is done, I would say it was done as two unidirectional movements. So the timing units would be HMHMHMH, where the first HMH ends with a contact on the upper part of the hand, and the final HMH ends with a contact on the lower part of the hand.
> 
> There is a possibility for this sign to be done with “less dramatic” movements, which I personally would see more people doing this type of sign as. In that case, it would be done as two holds. So the timing units would be HMH. I guess that could be the difference of having the movement arrows to the contact symbols vs only having the contact symbols if you were to compare it to SignWriting. I personally don’t see it changing the meaning of the signs when this happens, which is why I usually write the latter version as it means less symbols so it is a simpler reading.
> 
> If I were to write this sign, I would write it this way:
> 
> 
> Although, the initial contact could be written if you would like:
> 
> 
> 
> Adam
> 
>> On Jan 26, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I'm interested to know if you guys think of the model when you're transcribing a gesture. I usually don't. But I think it might be a good idea to consider this model. Only, I have trouble determining the correct M-H syllable in some signs. 
>> 
>> For a common understanding there are examples:
>> 
>> - Geschwindigkeit (speed):
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Geschwindigkeit/5750242766511595:118
>> 
>> This gesture contains a reduplicated movement -> M +. 
>> Do you see it the same way? 
>> 
>> - Default
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Default/8088731661663380:55
>> 
>> This gesture contains a reduplicated movement with hold -> MH +.
>> Do you see it like this?
>> 
>> Impuls:
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Impuls/5750242766511595:801
>> 
>> This gesture contains a simple movement with hold -> MH
>> 
>> I'm not sure when a hold is when there is a simple contact (*) or when the movement is stopped (~). 
>> 
>> So, now I come to a problem:
>> Which syllable has this sign?  HMH ? or MH +
>> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Daten/8088731661663380:40
>> 
>> Which syllable has this sign? 
>> 
>> HMH
>> or
>> 
>> MH + but in different places
>> 
>> 
>> or this signwriting. HMH. 
>> 
>> Which sign writing do you prefer. Or would you write the sign differently.
>> 
>> I can't tell when the gesture starts. When the right hand already arrives at the left hand or before. 
>> Is it possible to determine this for sure using The LIddell and Johnson Movement-Hold Model?
>> 
>> It is important to me that the gesture can be found safely by most users via signsearch. 
>> 
>> What movement symbols would you choose:
>> There are 5 different movement tracks in signsearch:
>> - straight motion trace
>> - wavy motion trace
>> - angular motion trace
>> - circular motion track
>> - spiral motion track
>> 
>> Which sign writing do you prefer. Or would you write the sign differently. 
>> 
>> It is important to me that the sign can be found via signsearch. 
>> 
>> What movement symbols would you choose:
>> There are 5 different motion traces in signsearch:
>> - straight motion trace
>> - wavy motion trace
>> - angular motion trace
>> - circular motion track
>> - spiral motion track
>> 
>> 
>> It is important to me that the sign search works well, that a searched sign is found with only a few selected symbols. And this is really the case with many signs. :) We are very proud of this, but we want to make it even better. :) 
>> 
>> I am looking forward to your knowledge and experience. :)
>> 
>> Best regards 
>> and a nice day to all of you
>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
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>> 
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> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> 
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
> 
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> 
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
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