[Sw-l] The LIddell and Johnson Movement-Hold Model

Wed Jan 26 21:12:02 UTC 2022

You are all great. Very quick responses.

Especially the detailed answer about the hold-move model. :)
We have a linguist in our team and she wants to use sign writing on a
scientific basis.
I have made the effort to understand the model, but I am having trouble
putting the theory into practice. Maybe there are better models that can be
used for signwriting.

And my motivation is that a sign should contain as few symbols as possible
and still be easy to find via the sign search. And of course it should be
easy to read, so that you can easily reproduce it with the help of symbols.

I agree with you that arrows that are not significant can be omitted. I'm
just curious to know if you have to think about whether there are similar
signs and they can only be distinguished by movement.

For "impulse", I would let the movement stay, since the movement is not
that small. And the hand can theoretically be moved forward.

~ left hand is resting -> is obligatory because of the sign search, because
otherwise you won't find the sign.

-- arm symbol is used only if there is contact with the arm. Is because of
the sign search :)

- mouth movement ist interesting. For lexicon/dict, we need an image, which
is small. It is important for design. It is not easy to put a long picture
on a website. Mouth pictures are harder to read than words, just because we
are so used to letters.

I hope your interest remains.

Now what difficult :)

https://sign2mint.de/entry/Komet/5750242766511595:1650
[image: image.png]

I would leave out the rotation and lengthen the arrow. Is it enough?

https://sign2mint.de/entry/kubisch/5750242766511595:663
[image: image.png]

The rotation is not right, but I can't find rotation on the table level
plus movement up.

[image: image.png]
https://sign2mint.de/entry/Piezokristall/5750242766511595:1587
I don't like beginning and end hand shapes, because then there are much
more search results :D But in this case it can be solved only with end hand
shapes?

Your suggestions to the videos? :)

All the love!
Uta

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:33 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
wrote:

> SignWriting List
> January 26, 2022
>
> Hello Stefan!
>
> It is so great that you posted this message. Wonderful to have your input!
>
> You are right, we did not even start to discuss the mouth movements.
> Mundbilder in Gebaerdenschrift (mouth movments in SignWriting), and your
> special development of Mundbildschrift (Woehrmann’s SpeechWriting), are two
> important factors to writing signs, especially for educators of Deaf
> children.
>
> And yes, I noticed in SignPuddle Online that you had already written the
> movements the same. And as you say, you have it in DELEGS too! Wonderful!
>
> Val ;-)
>
> ---------
>
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2022, at 10:06 AM, Stefan Woehrmann <000000068eb2df61-dmarc-
> request at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU> wrote:
>
> Hi Uta, dear Valerie,
>
> just for fun I studied the questions of Uta Meißner and found Your answer
> Valerie...
>
> So many memories from previous spelling discussions came to my mind. And
> do you remember my explanation of why
> SignWriting without "Mundbilder"  is just an eternal guessing game for my
> deaf students. Well, that's
> how I developed the "Mundbilder in GebaerdenSchrift" and for a different
> purpose "MundbildSchrift". Certain speech movements
> are associated with very specific mouth symbols, and now
> you can read and understand the "mouthmovements" performed when signing
> German Sign Language DGS. The meaningful reading of SignWriting is
>  so much faster and so much clearer. There is an end to  the guessing
> game. Of course you always have to keep in mind the ideas of the scribe.
> What is the
> purpose for the written SignWriting document?  Lessons at the school for
> Deaf
> children simply cannot do without the Mundbilder. Great to see that my
> transcription is so similar to your example.
>
> Attached is my diagram. I saw the video.
>
> - Geschwindigkeit (speed):
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Geschwindigkeit/5750242766511595:118
>
>
>
> You find this sign in the wonderful, wonderful delegs-program...
>
> https://apps.delegs.de/delegseditor/
>
> All best Yours
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am Mi., 26. Jan. 2022 um 18:15 Uhr schrieb Valerie Sutton <
> sutton at signwriting.org>:
> SignWriting List
> January 26, 2022
>
> Hello SignWriting List and Uta!
>
> Thank you, Uta, for this wonderful message. Let me answer one question at
> a time. And I certainly hope others will answer too ;-)
>
> I love your work and look forward to long hours studying it ;-)
>
> Meanwhile, your first question below about how to write fast reduplicated
> movement.
>
> Attached is my diagram. I saw the video. When a movement is 2 very fast
> with an emphasis on one direction, we write it this way, with two arrows in
> one direction.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________
>
> - Geschwindigkeit (speed):
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Geschwindigkeit/5750242766511595:118
>
> This gesture contains a reduplicated movement -> M +.
> Do you see it the same way?
>
> ____________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2022, at 6:16 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm interested to know if you guys think of the model when you're
> transcribing a gesture. I usually don't. But I think it might be a good
> idea to consider this model. Only, I have trouble determining the correct
> M-H syllable in some signs.
>
> For a common understanding there are examples:
>
> - Geschwindigkeit (speed):
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Geschwindigkeit/5750242766511595:118
>
> This gesture contains a reduplicated movement -> M +.
> Do you see it the same way?
>
> - Default
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Default/8088731661663380:55
>
> This gesture contains a reduplicated movement with hold -> MH +.
> Do you see it like this?
>
> Impuls:
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Impuls/5750242766511595:801
>
> This gesture contains a simple movement with hold -> MH
>
> I'm not sure when a hold is when there is a simple contact (*) or when the
> movement is stopped (~).
>
> So, now I come to a problem:
> Which syllable has this sign?  HMH ? or MH +
> https://sign2mint.de/entry/Daten/8088731661663380:40
>
> Which syllable has this sign?
> <image.png>
> HMH
> or
> <image.png>
> MH + but in different places
>
> <image.png>
> or this signwriting. HMH.
>
> Which sign writing do you prefer. Or would you write the sign differently.
>
> I can't tell when the gesture starts. When the right hand already arrives
> at the left hand or before.
> Is it possible to determine this for sure using The LIddell and Johnson
> Movement-Hold Model?
>
> It is important to me that the gesture can be found safely by most users
> via signsearch.
>
> What movement symbols would you choose:
> There are 5 different movement tracks in signsearch:
> - straight motion trace
> - wavy motion trace
> - angular motion trace
> - circular motion track
> - spiral motion track
>
> Which sign writing do you prefer. Or would you write the sign differently.
>
> It is important to me that the sign can be found via signsearch.
>
> What movement symbols would you choose:
> There are 5 different motion traces in signsearch:
> - straight motion trace
> - wavy motion trace
> - angular motion trace
> - circular motion track
> - spiral motion track
>
>
> It is important to me that the sign search works well, that a searched
> sign is found with only a few selected symbols. And this is really the case
> with many signs. :) We are very proud of this, but we want to make it even
> better. :)
>
> I am looking forward to your knowledge and experience. :)
>
> Best regards
> and a nice day to all of you
>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
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>
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>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
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>
>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

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