[Sw-l] How do you write SW as fast as script writing for spoken languages?

Valerie Sutton sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
Sun Mar 20 16:55:38 UTC 2022

SignWriting List
March 20, 2022

Hi Andre -
So your visit was in 2012? That is a decade ago. What a wonderful memory. It is nice to know that you discussed science with my father, Paul, who was a physicist. I am sure he enjoyed that very much, André. He passed away in 2019, at age 97, and my mother, Doris, passed away in 2021, at age 100. Meeting you and your family was really meaningful for all of us. And many thanks to Nancy for excellent ASL interpreting. It was a blessing.

I now have my computer in the same kitchen where we met a decade ago ;-)

Thanks for the memories -

Val ;-)

PS. I hope to get to the “evolution of writing styles” document soon, which will include our documentation of the changes in the use of the General Arrowhead - thanks again for the excellent examples -


> On Mar 20, 2022, at 9:33 AM, André Thibeault <atg at VIDEOTRON.CA> wrote:
> Hi Val, Nancy and everyone,
> Val: Yes, my family visited you in 2012. Your mother and your father were
> very nice. Your father and I discussed about a science because he liked a
> lot of the science. If he still lives, please tell him hello for me.
> Nancy Romero: Thank you for your ASL interpreter because you could help my
> family communicate effectively with Val's parents.
> Best regards,
> André
> Le 22-03-19 22:47, « Valerie Sutton » <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> a écrit :
> ____________

>> SignWriting List
>> March 19, 2022
>> You are a good friend, André - thank you. I thought of you last Sunday,
>> when we had such a fun reunion of DAC members - and I remembered that you
>> and your family came to visit here in my home years ago - what year was
>> that? And I hope we can visit in person again sometime in the future -
>> maybe through a special visit on Zoom or Skype? we’ve known each other a
>> long time - my best wishes to your family - please tell them “hello” for
>> me!
>> Val ;-)
>> -------------
>>> On Mar 19, 2022, at 4:49 PM, André Thibeault <atg at VIDEOTRON.CA> wrote:
>>> Hi Val and everyone,
>>> Yes, I remember that I participated in the online handwriting course.
>>> But,
>>> it was a very short time because of your health problem. I was happy
>>> that
>>> you took good care of yourself.
>>> Best regards,
>>> André
>> ------------
>>> Le 22-03-19 18:03, « Valerie Sutton » <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> a écrit :
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> March 19, 2022
>>>> Old course onlineŠyears agoŠ we even had homework that I posted -
>>>> everyone did real wellŠ smile...
>>>> Write SignWriting by Hand
>>>> https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/cursive/cursive.html
>>>> -----------
>>>>> On Mar 19, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Adamąs video and slides on SW Handwriting in 2014:
>>>>> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0003.html#video
>>>>>> On Mar 19, 2022, at 11:01 AM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> SignWriting List
>>>>>> March 19, 2022
>>>>>> Hello SignWriting List, Sutthikhun, Carlos, AnnaGrace and Adam,
>>>>>> Thank you for this discussion on SignWriting Shorthand and
>>>>>> HandwritingŠ. letąs keep talking...
>>>>>> Adam, and all of you, are the next generation of handwritersŠ it
>>>>>> needs
>>>>>> to be based on the way people are writing SignWriting Printing, that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> used for publishing today Šso that there is a clear connection with
>>>>>> SignWriting Printing, Handwriting and Shorthand of this era - 2022
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> forward...
>>>>>> Meanwhile, since you mentioned the old eraŠ.from an historical
>>>>>> perspective, we certainly did have a successful Shorthand back in the
>>>>>> 1980s. It was based on the SignWriting Printing of that era, which
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> written with a full stick figure, Receptive, and written
>>>>>> horizontally.
>>>>>> I will be happy to post the 1980ąs books, if it would be useful. But
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> donąt want to confuse people eitherŠ
>>>>>> To explain, we took shorthand notes of complete classes at CSUN
>>>>>> (California State University of Northridge), based on the
>>>>>> interpreters
>>>>>> who were signing the classes for Deaf participants, and then later
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> shorthand notetakers re-wrote the shorthand notes for the Deaf
>>>>>> participants so they would have something to refer to from the class
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> the SW shorthand notes were written at speed while the interpreter
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> signing so they were oftentimes a little messy so then the new notes
>>>>>> that were re-written, were in clearer SignWriting for the reader.
>>>>>> But then I learned from a linguist who worked with our DAC (Deaf
>>>>>> Action Committee), Dr. Karen van Hoek, that Karen used the Shorthand
>>>>>> system to write for daily use for herself and her notes and she
>>>>>> avoided
>>>>>> the formal SignWriting for her own personal notetaking. I was really
>>>>>> happy about that of course -
>>>>>> So why are we not using the 1980ąs Shorthand today? Because the DAC
>>>>>> asked for important changes to SignWriting in the late 1980s:
>>>>>> some of the changes were...
>>>>>> 1. Receptive changed to Expressive
>>>>>> 2. Writing horizontally changed to writing in vertical columns
>>>>>> 3. Some hand symbols changed - and the list goes on with the changesŠ
>>>>>> So here is my question for you all -
>>>>>> If I post the old SignWriting Shorthand materials, will it confuse
>>>>>> your modern development of SignWriting Handwriting and Shorthand?
>>>>>> It could be beneficial in some ways too - just as long as you all
>>>>>> realize how long ago this wasŠ and it is really meant for the history
>>>>>> archives.
>>>>>> Adam, how do you feel about this? Should I post the 1980ąs Shorthand
>>>>>> book?
>>>>>> If we had a new Shorthand book side by side with it, that might make
>>>>>> it clear, the differencesŠ hmmmŠ. another project! ;-)
>>>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>>> ________________
>>>>>>> On Mar 19, 2022, at 9:26 AM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> This has always been an interesting discussion for me. :-)
>>>>>>> I never really learned SignWriting shorthand as it was designed and
>>>>>>> used originally. I did talk about it with Valerie quite extensively,
>>>>>>> though. She had told me that the handbook you are referring to
>>>>>>> needed
>>>>>>> to be updated if it were to be used because the system has gone
>>>>>>> through a lot of changes since it has been in use. That is probably
>>>>>>> why it isnąt available for download.
>>>>>>> Carlos sent you a link to a presentation that I did on this topic.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> is a good place to start, but even my handwriting has changed since
>>>>>>> then since it is coming up on 10 years since. Wow! I guess I should
>>>>>>> look at how I handwrite now and document it somehow. I know that
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> are a lot of symbol changes for faster writing, for one.
>>>>>>> I have also been doing a lot of dictionary sorting lately so I have
>>>>>>> been writing by SignSpellingSequence. I have often wondered if it
>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>> to become established and commonly used if inputing solely by
>>>>>>> SignSpellingSequence would be a fast way to write as well. It makes
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> easy for writing, but makes reading very difficult as it loses all
>>>>>>> visual aspect of SignWriting, so I am not so sure if it is a good
>>>>>>> thing to consider. Ha!
>>>>>>> I have also been testing out various approaches to make it so I can
>>>>>>> write fewer symbols, including the use of timing symbols in a new
>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>> but I havenąt really gotten to a place where I am satisfied that it
>>>>>>> works well. I know that I mentioned it in the presentation I gave in
>>>>>>> 2014 and it has been picked up by others around the world, but I
>>>>>>> havenąt really used it much myself.
>>>>>>> <namesign.png>
>>>>>>> Adam
>>>>>> _______________
>>>>>>>> On Mar 19, 2022, at 2:36 AM, Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai
>>>>>>>> <suttikunep at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your answer and the link you provided, Carlos!
>>>>>>>> Sutthikhun
>>>>>> _______________
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 at 23:56, Ms. AnnaGrace
>>>>>>>> <msannagrace20 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>> I was thinking about shorthand too!
>>>>>>>> Thank you, Carlos, for the link. :-)
>>>>>>>> AnnaGrace
>>>>>> _______________
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 12:19 PM Carlos Cristian Libras
>>>>>>>> <carloscristianlibras at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I make daily use of SW in shorthand.
>>>>>>>> I took a part of Adam presentation from the link -
>>>>>>>> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0003.html#abstract
>>>>>>>> Another friend from Ethiopia also made some cursive hand shapes,
>>>>>>>> which I copied. Some forms I invented myself to facilitate my
>>>>>>>> registration.
>>>>>>>> Last month I did a translation that I will record a video in ASL
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> before recording I wrote everything with SW shorthand, and then I
>>>>>>>> recorded it. So I use it daily, and I know many others around the
>>>>>>>> world use it too.
>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:30 AM Sutthikhun Phaengphongsai
>>>>>>>> <suttikunep at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi everyone in SW List! Let me ask you something ‹
>>>>>>>>   € Is SW shorthand still in use nowadays? I remember SW used to
>>>>>>>> have a handbook for writing shorthand as well, unfortunately I
>>>>>>>> can't
>>>>>>>> find a link to download it.
>>>>>>>>   € Do you usually apply SW shorthand in your writing? If not, how
>>>>>>>> do you write as fast as script writing for spoken languages?
>>>>>>>> Writing
>>>>>>>> with SW, in my opinion, is a hybrid between sketching and writing,
>>>>>>>> which makes it too slow to write if you want to take quick notes.
>>>>>>>> Thank you ;)
>>>>>>>> Sutthikhun



Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

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