[Sw-l] What better way to write sign with more moves and handshapes
Uta Meißner
uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM
Thu May 5 11:27:02 UTC 2022
Hi Valerie,
I like the idea of having the hands that are touching as close as possible,
next to each other or even on top of each other, so that it is easier to
see where they are touching.
Only with some hand shapes it can come to problems with the recognition of
the hand shape if the two hands overlap.
We in the team ourselves disagree to what degree the symbols may overlap.
Example:
https://test.sign2mint.de/entry/Makrophage/14548230564932464:904
The current example does not show well where the hands touch. I have to
agree with you there. The hand position of the left hand is not correct, it
should be the same as the right hand.
[image: image.png]
Would you like the new proposal better?
You can not see the thumbs here, although they are not important here.
And I just noticed that it is better when the arrows meet exactly?
[image: image.png]
I am curious about your suggestions for improvement :)
I have read the book from Stefan in its entirety. :) Still I have 1000
questions :D
Greetings Uta
On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 9:31 AM Valerie Sutton <
0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote:
> SignWriting List
> May 5, 2022
>
> Hello everyone and Uta -
>
> The Lessons in SignWriting Textbook is a collection of different lessons
> over the years, so in the back the SignSpelling Guidelines on pages 194-203
> are very important. But they are thrown in at the back and most people do
> not even realize they are there. So you can put the blame on me that the
> book is not better planned. I hope to write a better book someday ;-)
>
> And this information is not in SignPuddle, but is instead under
> SignWriting Lessons, where you can download many books teaching
> SignWriting, written by several authors, in several languages:
>
> SignWriting Books
> https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/books
>
> I wonder Uta, have you read Stefan Woehrmann’s textbook on SignWriting?
> Handbuch zur Gebaerdenschrift? It is an excellent book and it is in German
> and DGS.
>
> https://gebaerden.de/de/151588-Inhaltsangabe#handg
>
> And yes, there are simple rules related to when to write the beginning or
> ending handshape, if you want to take one away.
>
> The rule is on page 194 of the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook. Here is
> the excerpt from those pages:
>
> page 194 and 195
> Writing Signs
> SignSpelling Guideline 1
> First, write the Position of Contact
>
>
> When starting to write a sign, ask yourself: “Is there a Position of Contact in this sign?”. Are the hands contacting each other? Are the hands contacting the Face or Body? Write that Position of Contact first, which becomes the “Center of the Sign”.
>
> When writing the Position of Contact, try to place the two contacting symbols as close to each other as possible. Try to make it
> look like it does in real life. There should be very little space between the two contacting symbols.
>
>
> SignSpellings revolve around the Position of Contact like a small universe. The Position of Contact is the Center of the Sign, and the Movement and Contact Symbols relate to that center.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Position of Contact is important because it holds the meaning in a sign. The eye focuses on the Position of Contact when reading. The Position of Contact is like a unit.
>
>
> Writing the Position of Contact also creates smaller signs in width and height, which makes writing in vertical columns more centered and compact, making the columns themselves less wide.
>
>
> Writing the Position of Contact gives a visual picture of the sign. Since you can see the two hands are touching by their close placement, the single Touch Contact Star is rarely necessary. It is not wrong to write the single Touch Contact Star, but it is not necessary either. This simplifies the writing of signs.
>
>
> Double Touch Contact Stars are written no matter what, because Double Touch, or Touch-Touch, is a movement, not a position. It is only single Touch Contact Stars that can be eliminated.
>
> SignSpelling Guideline 1
>
> The two contacting symbols, such as the Hands and Face, are written close to each other. Then Movement Symbols are placed nearby.
>
>
> Sometimes the entire sign is nothing but the Position of Contact, with no other symbols needed.
>
>
>
>
> Now, your question about Sign Search in software. That is a different
> issue because it depends on the software I would assume. And sometimes
> searching is specially programmed to fit your criteria...
>
> The point about following "SignSpelling Guideline 1: Always Write The
> Position of Contact” is that it cuts down on the number of symbols used to
> write a sign. Many signs can be written and read accurately with fewer
> symbols, so in the long run signs should be easier to find. And its much
> easier for the reader.
>
> I am not sure what to tell you about searching since I am a movement
> notator, and not a programmer… but let’s keep the conversation going… I bet
> we all can learn much from each other…
>
> Val ;-)
>
> --------
>
> On May 4, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Dear Valerie,
>
> thank you for links with a lot of Informations.
>
> I actually don't remember reading those once, although I was on signpuddle
> a lot 3 years ago looking for information. I missed a lot of things. Well,
> I will take the time to read them.
>
> Thanks for your suggestion on my sign names 🙂 I like it better. 😊
> I had once thought long and hard about when just beginning hand shape,
> when just ending hand shape and when both. And unfortunately couldn't find
> any simple rules about it, which I could then explain to everyone who wants
> to use the sign search at sign2mint.de.
> If they exist, please tell me. That would make me happy.
> My current immature thinking is, there are two parts at SWU. The first
> part is responsible for the order of the found results, while the second
> part contains information about symbols in the signwriting image, their
> coordinates and level. There I would like to put all the symbols that the
> signwriting describes, but in their assigned place.
> 1. right initial hand shape
> 2. right end hand shape
> 3. left initial handshape
> 4. left end hand shape
> 5. localization (head, neck,..)
> 5. contact before movement
> 6. primary movement for right hand
> 7. secondary movement for right hand
> 8th primary movement for left hand
> 9. secondary movement for left hand
> 10. contact after movement
> 11. dynamics (fast, slow,..)
> 12. dynamics (parallel, alternating ...)
> 13. facial expression mouth
> 14. facial expression eye
> 15. ....
>
> @all Do any of you here still consciously use the first part of SWU? When
> do you need it?
>
> Best regards
> Uta
>
> Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> schrieb am Mi., 4. Mai 2022,
> 18:21:
> SignWriting List
> May 4, 2022
>
> Hello everyone, and Uta -
> Thank you for these questions related to how many handshapes are needed to
> write signs. And your examples show two different issues.
>
> So let me take your second example first.
>
> When I personally write, I follow our SignSpelling Guidelines, that help
> with this issue. Your second example would be written differently,
> following "SignSpelling Guideline 1: First Write the Position of Contact”,
> which is explained on numbered pages 194-195 in the Lessons in SignWriting
> Textbook. It is also explained on this web page:
> https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less063.html
>
> Lessons in SignWriting Textbook, (See numbered pages 194-195)
> https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0116-Lessons-SignWriting.pdf
>
> So to explain… in your second example, following the Guideline, I would
> write the “Position of Contact”, because there is real meaning in the
> ending position. And to have a position of contact, there has to be an open
> position in the beginning, so that can be assumed…
>
> So I would write it this way. In my attached example, the second one would
> take away the opening position because it can easily assumed:
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2022, at 5:35 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I would take example (4), because the hand will be open during movement.
> If the reader knows signwriting well, then I would like to reduce the
> symbols.
>
> There is the symbol for opening the fingers. " ^ "
>
> I'm interested if you guys can read my proposed signwriting better.
>
>
>
> I know, not always only the first hand form is enough, sometimes you need
> the end hand form for that. How about highlighting the two hand shapes in
> different colors. Start handshape -> dark gray and end handshape -> black?
>
>
>
> Uta
>
>
> ________________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
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> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <image.png>
> <Image.png><image.png><image.png><image.png><image.png>
>
>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
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________________________________________________
SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org
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