[Sw-l] What better way to write sign with more moves and handshapes

Sat May 7 15:26:57 UTC 2022

SignWriting List
May 7, 2022

Hello SignWriting List members, and Uta -

Thank you for this message, Uta. I am glad we are communicating about the details of writing signs and sign literature for publication, which is different than handwriting (writing by hand).

When we use computers to publish written signs and sign literature, such as the sign2mint project, or such as publishing the entire 27 books of the New Testament in written ASL…or writing Wikipedia articles in sign languages…or writing newspapers in written sign languages... we can use computers to make it easer for the reader to recognize the sign quickly, so writing 2 hands, when the 2 hands are needed for the reader, is not hard by computer. Taking away information from the reader, if it makes them forced to guess and mis-read quickly, is not an advantage. Computer publishing is for the reader, and handwriting is for the writer, and they are different in all writing systems around the world is my guess, at least it is true for SignWriting.

So taking away handshapes when writing by hand is more needed… but sitting down and reading a novel or a newspaper or a history book that is written in a sign language, is another skill that we are slowly bringing into existence. That is my focus. To bring reading sign literature into the daily lives of signers...

So the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook, with the SignSpelling Guidelines in the back, is focusing on what we call “SignWriting Printing”, for publishing signs and sign literature by computer.

We do need better books and more documentation, but we already have a lot available, so I will try now to put focus on the documentation you may not know about…

First...

I am glad to know that you read Stefan Woehrmann’s textbook "Handbuch zur Gebaerdenschrift” which is an excellent book. Thank you, Stefan!

https://gebaerden.de/de/151588-Inhaltsangabe#handg

And you still have 1000 questions? Wonderful! Please ask each question, one by one, here on the SignWriting List, and we will be happy to answer them and discuss them. It will be fun!

I plan to start a new thread, called “1000 SignWriting Questions” ;-)

So under this new thread, I will discuss your example of Makrophage.

I look forward to our discussions!

Val ;-)

_________

> On May 5, 2022, at 4:27 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Hi Valerie,
> 
> I like the idea of having the hands that are touching as close as possible, next to each other or even on top of each other, so that it is easier to see where they are touching. 
> Only with some hand shapes it can come to problems with the recognition of the hand shape if the two hands overlap. 
> 
> We in the team ourselves disagree to what degree the symbols may overlap. 
> 
> Example: 
> 
> https://test.sign2mint.de/entry/Makrophage/14548230564932464:904
> 
> The current example does not show well where the hands touch. I have to agree with you there. The hand position of the left hand is not correct, it should be the same as the right hand.
> 
> 
> Would you like the new proposal better? 
> You can not see the thumbs here, although they are not important here. 
> And I just noticed that it is better when the arrows meet exactly?
> 
> 
> I am curious about your suggestions for improvement :)
> 
> I have read the book from Stefan in its entirety. :) Still I have 1000 questions :D
> 
> Greetings Uta
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 9:31 AM Valerie Sutton <0000001342802f5f-dmarc-request at listserv.valenciacollege.edu> wrote:
> SignWriting List
> May 5, 2022
> 
> Hello everyone and Uta -
> 
> The Lessons in SignWriting Textbook is a collection of different lessons over the years, so in the back the SignSpelling Guidelines on pages 194-203 are very important. But they are thrown in at the back and most people do not even realize they are there. So you can put the blame on me that the book is not better planned. I hope to write a better book someday ;-)
> 
> And this information is not in SignPuddle, but is instead under SignWriting Lessons, where you can download many books teaching SignWriting, written by several authors, in several languages:
> 
> SignWriting Books
> https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/books
> 
> I wonder Uta, have you read Stefan Woehrmann’s textbook on SignWriting? Handbuch zur Gebaerdenschrift? It is an excellent book and it is in German and DGS.
> 
> https://gebaerden.de/de/151588-Inhaltsangabe#handg
> 
> And yes, there are simple rules related to when to write the beginning or ending handshape, if you want to take one away.
> 
> The rule is on page 194 of the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook. Here is the excerpt from those pages:
> 
> page 194 and 195
> Writing Signs
> SignSpelling Guideline 1
> First, write the Position of Contact
>  
> When starting to write a sign,  ask  yourself:  “Is  there  a  Position of Contact in this sign?”. Are the hands contacting each other? Are the hands contacting the Face or Body?  Write that Position of Contact first,  which  becomes  the  “Center  of  the  Sign”.
>  
> When writing the Position of Contact, try to place the two contacting symbols  as  close  to   each   other   as   possible. Try to make it   look like it does in real life.  There should be very little space between the two contacting symbols.
>  
> SignSpellings revolve around the Position of Contact like a small universe.  The  Position  of  Contact  is  the   Center   of   the   Sign, and  the  Movement  and  Contact  Symbols  relate  to  that  center.
>  
>  
> 
>  
>  
> The Position of Contact is  important  because  it  holds  the meaning in a sign. The eye  focuses  on  the  Position  of  Contact   when   reading.   The   Position   of   Contact   is   like   a   unit.
>  
> Writing the Position of Contact also creates smaller signs in width and height, which makes writing in vertical columns more centered  and  compact,  making  the  columns  themselves  less  wide.
>  
> Writing  the  Position  of  Contact  gives  a   visual   picture of  the sign. Since you can see the two hands are  touching  by  their close placement, the single Touch Contact Star is rarely  necessary.  It  is  not  wrong  to  write  the  single  Touch  Contact  Star,  but it  is  not  necessary  either.  This  simplifies the  writing  of  signs.
>  
> Double  Touch  Contact  Stars  are  written  no  matter  what,   because Double Touch, or Touch-Touch, is a movement,  not  a  position.  It  is  only  single Touch  Contact  Stars  that  can  be  eliminated.
> 
> SignSpelling Guideline 1
> The two contacting symbols, such as the Hands and Face, are written close to each other. Then Movement Symbols are placed nearby.
>  
> Sometimes the entire sign is nothing but the Position of Contact, with no other symbols needed.
>  
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Now, your question about Sign Search in software. That is a different issue because it depends on the software I would assume. And sometimes searching is specially programmed to fit your criteria...
> 
> The point about following "SignSpelling Guideline 1: Always Write The Position of Contact” is that it cuts down on the number of symbols used to write a sign. Many signs can be written and read accurately with fewer symbols, so in the long run signs should be easier to find. And its much easier for the reader.
> 
> I am not sure what to tell you about searching since I am a movement notator, and not a programmer… but let’s keep the conversation going… I bet we all can learn much from each other…
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> --------
> 
>> On May 4, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Valerie,
>> 
>> thank you for links with a lot of Informations.
>> 
>> I actually don't remember reading those once, although I was on signpuddle a lot 3 years ago looking for information. I missed a lot of things. Well, I will take the time to read them.
>> 
>> Thanks for your suggestion on my sign names 🙂 I like it better. 😊
>> I had once thought long and hard about when just beginning hand shape, when just ending hand shape and when both. And unfortunately couldn't find any simple rules about it, which I could then explain to everyone who wants to use the sign search at sign2mint.de.
>> If they exist, please tell me. That would make me happy.
>> My current immature thinking is, there are two parts at SWU. The first part is responsible for the order of the found results, while the second part contains information about symbols in the signwriting image, their coordinates and level. There I would like to put all the symbols that the signwriting describes, but in their assigned place.
>> 1. right initial hand shape
>> 2. right end hand shape
>> 3. left initial handshape
>> 4. left end hand shape
>> 5. localization (head, neck,..) 
>> 5. contact before movement
>> 6. primary movement for right hand
>> 7. secondary movement for right hand
>> 8th primary movement for left hand
>> 9. secondary movement for left hand
>> 10. contact after movement
>> 11. dynamics (fast, slow,..) 
>> 12. dynamics (parallel, alternating ...) 
>> 13. facial expression mouth
>> 14. facial expression eye
>> 15. .... 
>> 
>> @all Do any of you here still consciously use the first part of SWU? When do you need it?
>> 
>> Best regards
>> Uta
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> schrieb am Mi., 4. Mai 2022, 18:21:
>> SignWriting List
>> May 4, 2022
>> 
>> Hello everyone, and Uta -
>> Thank you for these questions related to how many handshapes are needed to write signs. And your examples show two different issues.
>> 
>> So let me take your second example first.
>> 
>> When I personally write, I follow our SignSpelling Guidelines, that help with this issue. Your second example would be written differently, following "SignSpelling Guideline 1: First Write the Position of Contact”, which is explained on numbered pages 194-195 in the Lessons in SignWriting Textbook. It is also explained on this web page: https://www.signwriting.org/lessons/elessons/less063.html
>> 
>> Lessons in SignWriting Textbook, (See numbered pages 194-195)
>> https://www.signwriting.org/archive/docs2/sw0116-Lessons-SignWriting.pdf
>> 
>> So to explain… in your second example, following the Guideline, I would write the “Position of Contact”, because there is real meaning in the ending position. And to have a position of contact, there has to be an open position in the beginning, so that can be assumed…
>> 
>> So I would write it this way. In my attached example, the second one would take away the opening position because it can easily assumed:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2022, at 5:35 AM, Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I would take example (4), because the hand will be open during movement. 
>>> If the reader knows signwriting well, then I would like to reduce the symbols.
>>> 
>>> There is the symbol for opening the fingers.  " ^ "
>>> 
>>> I'm interested if you guys can read my proposed signwriting better.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I know, not always only the first hand form is enough, sometimes you need the end hand form for that. How about highlighting the two hand shapes in different colors. Start handshape -> dark gray and end handshape -> black?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Uta
>>> 
>> 
>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
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>> ________________________________________________
>> 
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>> 
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>> 
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>> 
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
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>> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> 
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
> 
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> 
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
> 
> ________________________________________________
> 
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
> 
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
> 
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
> 
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> 
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________________________________________________

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sutton at signwriting.org

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