# [Sw-l] What better way to write sign with more moves and handshapes

Valerie Sutton sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG
Sat May 7 21:59:38 UTC 2022

```SignWriting List
May 7, 2022

Hi André, and everyone,

Thank you for this explanation of a compound below in your email. I love to read your examples. You are a good teacher.

I did not know about the 3 morphological rules of creating compounds in ASL. And then the 2 morphological rules: the single sequence rule and the weak hand anticipation. Very interesting.

So this writing of SON-IN-LAW is not a compound but two separate signs:

> On May 5, 2022, at 9:07 AM, André Thibeault <atg at VIDEOTRON.CA> wrote:
>
> Hi Val and everyone,
>
> I explain a compound. The first sign for BOY is   .  You see one hand for BOY,   is repeated.  The second sign  for BABY is.  .. You see both hands for BABY. Is repeated.  Three morphological rules are used to create compound in ASL. Now i am talking about two morphological rules: 1) the single sequence rule et 2) the weak hand anticipation.  When the compound (BOY-BABY) is made in ASL, the repetition of movment is eliminated.  This is called the single sequence rule. Accordijg to the single sequence rue,  becomes    and   becomes .  When  two signs are combined to form a compound,  if often happens that  the signer's weak anticipatesthe second sign in the compound.  This ic called the weak hand anticipation. For example, in the compound SON (BOY-BABY), you will notice that the weak hand appears in the space  in front of the signer with flat hand of the sign BABY  at the same time that the active or strong hand is produced the sign BOY.. ASL sign is for SON is .. For the assimilation, the handshape changes to match the handhape of another sign. For example, the handhape of BOY changes from  to  because of handshape of BABY .    You see it is a compound SON.
>
>
> ASL sign is for SON-IN-LAW is .I do not think that SON-IN-LAW is a compound. I see two signs (not one sign) for SON-IN-LAW because the three morphological rules do not apply to the sign IN-LAW..
>
> Best regards,
>
> André
>
>
> De : Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG>
> Répondre à : "SignWriting List: Read and Write Sign Languages" <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Date : Wed, 04 May 2022 23:50:33 -0700
> À : <SW-L at LISTSERV.VALENCIACOLLEGE.EDU>
> Objet : Re: What better way to write sign with more moves and handshapes
>
> Here is an American sign for SON-IN-LAW - this is a compound sign I believe that is written like one stacked unit… there are three signs really - SON, BABY, LAW - but I read it as one sign, but you can still see it is a compound...
>
>
>
> And I just wrote your second sign, and just did it without any rules, and I ended up writing it as one sign - so just show the parts and make them as compact as a unit as you can -
>
>
>
>
>
>> On May 4, 2022, at 11:05 PM, Valerie Sutton <sutton at SIGNWRITING.ORG> wrote:
>>
>> SignWriting List
>> May 4, 2022
>>
>> Hello Rubens, and Adam -
>>
>> Thank you for your message and question, Rubens. I just read your message now. I am sorry for my delay. These are very interesting examples. I realize Adam has already answered in detail.
>>
>> Adam is of course correct, that the feeling, when writing the signs in two parts, one above the other, is that they are compound signs. If the two parts are a little closer to each other it will be understood as a compound sign, just as Adam said. But when you put it all together like your second examples, it feels like the two parts are blending or flowing into one sign… I know I have written such signs in both ways at different times and we have never had a rule. It is more accurately read when the two parts are clearly separated, but writing it as one flowing sign has the advantage of showing how the compound sign has now become one sign…like all languages that incorporate compounds into one word over time.
>>
>> So for me it was always a “feeling” or intuitive hunch that it was better to write the sign one way or the other. I was afraid to limit the writer into a rule…
>>
>> There are signs like this too, in ASL and other sign languages… when I run across one I will post it ;-)
>>
>> I am curious about your Example 3 and 4 - they do not seem to have the same amount of circles -
>>
>> Val ;-)
>>
>> --------------
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 3, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Rubens,
>>>
>>> A very good question. I don’t think there is any “standard” guideline about how to write these cases. It is really what is the most readable to those who use the language.
>>>
>>> Since I am not native to Libras, I can’t give you a definite answer for both spelling. However, I can give you some help regardless as a native signer. :-)
>>>
>>> When I personally face these sort of issues, I ask myself if the sign is a compound, which means there are two separate parts to the sign as if they had their own separate meaning. The English words for audiovisual and SIgnWriting are compounds (audio + visual and Sign + Writing). So with that in mind, when I look at the sign for “audiovisual” in your video, I get the feeling there are two parts. Because of that, I would pick the first example because it is written to show the separation. (Although I would reduce the gap between so they aren’t read as separate words.)
>>>
>>> <Screen Shot 2022-05-03 at 4.53.31 PM.png>
>>>
>>> Of course, since I am not a native Libras signer – my Libras is minimum at most – my interpretation could be wrong and there isn’t a compound in two signs here. If that were the case, the second spelling might be better. However, I would suggest a minor change in spelling since I didn’t see an inward traveling movement between the first and second handshape like there was to the last handshape. (I placed the handshape above, but it could also be placed next to as well.)
>>>
>>> <Screen Shot 2022-05-03 at 5.07.46 PM.png>
>>>
>>> The same could be said for the Libras sign for SignWriting. The first example is written as if it is a compound, while the second spelling is written as if it were one sign. To me as a non-native Libras signer, I don’t see that sign as a compound and would probably use the second spelling. But maybe it is a compound and should be written as in the first spelling.
>>>
>>> <Screen Shot 2022-05-03 at 4.54.13 PM.png>
>>>
>>> <namesign.png>
>>>
>>>> On May 3, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Profo Rubens Almeida <rubens.escritadesinais at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Recently there was a question that we talked about in the SignWriting Brasil WhatsApp group regarding how to write a sign that uses more movements and more than one handshape. The example was the audiovisual spelling in Libras. There was a member of the group that did the direct writing (term I use for writing that is not done and 2 steps), however, I found the writing to be confusing, difficult to read, so I suggested writing in 2 steps (according to example (1) of the attached video) in order to facilitate reading.
>>>>
>>>> I learned from Adam that this is the best option in these cases, when some time ago I introduced him to the SignWriting script used in Libras with two writing possibilities. Adam explained that the writing (from example 3 in the attached video) was more readable.
>>>>
>>>> My question is how can I understand when I can use direct writing in order to save graphemes and spaces when writing signs with more movements and more than one handshape, and also where can I find more guidelines, references to publications that clarify this question .
>>>>
>>>> Thank you in advance for everyone's attention and support!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/IxD7Kfc2uow
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hugs!
>>>>
>>>> Rubens Almeida
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Questionamento no SignWriting List.mp4
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --

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