[Sw-l] What better way to write sign with more moves and handshapes

Sun May 8 14:31:23 UTC 2022

SignWriting List
May 8, 2022

Hello everyone, and Rubens,

Thank you for your message. I keep thinking of the sign AUDIOVISUAL in Libras. Attached are 2 more possibilities… I entered them in the Brazilian SignPuddle dictionary, and of course you can delete them - does the test 2 attached lose meaning without the open-cupped hand? Even the side arrow could be taken away if the meaning is preserved. The more detailed writings can be in the dictionary along side the shortened versions and you can see which spellings are used more by writers and you can ask a group of people if they can read the sign without knowing in advance what the sign is...

_______

> On May 5, 2022, at 12:57 PM, Profo Rubens Almeida <rubens.escritadesinais at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Hi Valerie,
> 
> I was very happy with your comments. I understand that you proposed that the writer have more options and so not limit him with rules. I would be very happy to see signs in ASL along these lines. 😃
> 
> Regarding the difference in the number of circles shown in examples 3 and 4, you are right, example 4 has only one circle, it was made with the aim of simplifying, the use of one or two circles does not change the semantics of the sign. 😉
> 
> Thank you very much for the valuable considerations Valerie!
> 
> Hugs!
> 
> Rubens Almeida
> 
> 
> 
> Em qui., 5 de mai. de 2022 às 03:06, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> escreveu:
> SignWriting List
> May 4, 2022
> 
> Hello Rubens, and Adam -
> 
> Thank you for your message and question, Rubens. I just read your message now. I am sorry for my delay. These are very interesting examples. I realize Adam has already answered in detail.
> 
> Adam is of course correct, that the feeling, when writing the signs in two parts, one above the other, is that they are compound signs. If the two parts are a little closer to each other it will be understood as a compound sign, just as Adam said. But when you put it all together like your second examples, it feels like the two parts are blending or flowing into one sign… I know I have written such signs in both ways at different times and we have never had a rule. It is more accurately read when the two parts are clearly separated, but writing it as one flowing sign has the advantage of showing how the compound sign has now become one sign…like all languages that incorporate compounds into one word over time.
> 
> So for me it was always a “feeling” or intuitive hunch that it was better to write the sign one way or the other. I was afraid to limit the writer into a rule…
> 
> There are signs like this too, in ASL and other sign languages… when I run across one I will post it ;-)
> 
> I am curious about your Example 3 and 4 - they do not seem to have the same amount of circles -
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> --------------
> 
>  
> 
>> On May 3, 2022, at 5:17 PM, Adam Frost <icemandeaf at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Rubens,
>> 
>> A very good question. I don’t think there is any “standard” guideline about how to write these cases. It is really what is the most readable to those who use the language.
>> 
>> Since I am not native to Libras, I can’t give you a definite answer for both spelling. However, I can give you some help regardless as a native signer. :-)
>> 
>> When I personally face these sort of issues, I ask myself if the sign is a compound, which means there are two separate parts to the sign as if they had their own separate meaning. The English words for audiovisual and SIgnWriting are compounds (audio + visual and Sign + Writing). So with that in mind, when I look at the sign for “audiovisual” in your video, I get the feeling there are two parts. Because of that, I would pick the first example because it is written to show the separation. (Although I would reduce the gap between so they aren’t read as separate words.)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Of course, since I am not a native Libras signer – my Libras is minimum at most – my interpretation could be wrong and there isn’t a compound in two signs here. If that were the case, the second spelling might be better. However, I would suggest a minor change in spelling since I didn’t see an inward traveling movement between the first and second handshape like there was to the last handshape. (I placed the handshape above, but it could also be placed next to as well.)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The same could be said for the Libras sign for SignWriting. The first example is written as if it is a compound, while the second spelling is written as if it were one sign. To me as a non-native Libras signer, I don’t see that sign as a compound and would probably use the second spelling. But maybe it is a compound and should be written as in the first spelling.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Adam
>> 
>>> On May 3, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Profo Rubens Almeida <rubens.escritadesinais at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello everyone on the SignWriting List,
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Recently there was a question that we talked about in the SignWriting Brasil WhatsApp group regarding how to write a sign that uses more movements and more than one handshape. The example was the audiovisual spelling in Libras. There was a member of the group that did the direct writing (term I use for writing that is not done and 2 steps), however, I found the writing to be confusing, difficult to read, so I suggested writing in 2 steps (according to example (1) of the attached video) in order to facilitate reading.
>>> 
>>> I learned from Adam that this is the best option in these cases, when some time ago I introduced him to the SignWriting script used in Libras with two writing possibilities. Adam explained that the writing (from example 3 in the attached video) was more readable.
>>> 
>>> My question is how can I understand when I can use direct writing in order to save graphemes and spaces when writing signs with more movements and more than one handshape, and also where can I find more guidelines, references to publications that clarify this question .
>>> 
>>> Thank you in advance for everyone's attention and support!
>>> 
>>> Here's a link to the video on YouTube:
>>> 
>>> https://youtu.be/IxD7Kfc2uow
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hugs!
>>> 
>>> Rubens Almeida
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  Questionamento no SignWriting List.mp4
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
> 

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