[Sw-l] Question about wrist side-flex

Mon Nov 14 18:39:59 UTC 2022

Hi Uta,

Could you please attach screenshots of the link that's in your recent
email? I can't seem to navigate it well, as I don't know German. :-D

Thanks,
AnnaGrace

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 11:02 AM Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Adam and all,
>
> "I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. "
>
> I find your statement so interesting.
> I also wondered when I was learning signwriting why the arrows in hand
> gestures are straight. For me, that's mostly a quarter circle.
> I've created a lot of sign scripts, so I've noticed that sometimes it
> doesn't matter whether it's straight or quadrant. Only the direction has to
> be right. Because if you sign small, then the arm would rather stay still
> and only the hand moves, the movement path is rather curvy. But if you sign
> big, then your arm moves with you, so the path of movement can be straight
> or curved.
>
> My conclusion: straight lines are easier to draw and read, but harder to
> understand. Especially to the front or back
>
> Question for you: How do you write that? On the table level with an arrow
> shaft and on the window level with a double arrow shaft. But at the rowboat
> level?
>
> https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche
> You can select the wrist symbol for "movement", then you will get all
> gestures with wrist movement.
>
> If you feel like it, you are welcome to compare videos with sign writing
> and see whether you would also write in this way. :)
>
> Greetings Uta
>
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:05 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think what we are seeing here is best explained by “proximalization”,
>> which is basically how signers with more skill in a sign language to
>> produce their movements will switched away from proximal joints to distal
>> joints. Or in the case of joints on the arm, move away from the shoulder
>> towards the fingertips.
>>
>> Basically it all depends on how your arm is angled in relations to your
>> hand. If your wrist is bent, your arm will not be parallel to your hand.
>> This would mean that you would have to rotate your arm in order to achieve
>> the movement of the hand. However, if your wrist is not bent, your arm is
>> parallel to your hand. This would mean that your wrist would have to bend
>> in order to achieve the movement of the hand.
>>
>>
>> Let’s compare these two writing of the sign MINUTE.
>>  and
>>
>> If you were to follow the first writing of minute, it would be assumed
>> that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the floor, which would
>> result in the wrist being bent. That would mean there would be a
>> rotation of the arm for this movement. If you were to follow the second
>> writing of minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat
>> parallel to the wall, which would result in the wrist not being bent. That
>> would mean there would be a wrist flex to the side for this movement.
>>
>> When I watched your video, your arm was neither parallel to the floor nor
>> the wall, but angled in between. In this case since both extremes would be
>> understood as meaning the same thing, it is ultimately up to the writer to
>> decide which to write. They both have their pros and cons. One way might be
>> easier to read, but another is faster to write. And there will be
>> disagreements as to which is faster to understand.
>>
>> I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. That would make sense why
>> most people who originally wrote the sign used the rotation symbol. But
>> that doesn’t mean that using the wrist flex is wrong.
>>
>> So, I just want to make clear that both writings are correct in their own
>> ways. You as the writer choose which you feel is best. :-)
>>
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Ms. AnnaGrace <msannagrace20 at GMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>
>> Valerie, thank you for the excellent explanation of the new spelling of
>> ASL's CHEESE. It's a case of compound symbols that causes the wrist to flex
>> side-to-side.
>>
>> I found *another* ASL sign that uses the wrist side-flex. It's the sign
>> for ONE SECOND.
>>
>> I asked Hector to read the sign without telling him the ASL meaning.
>> Having an objective, unbiased signer who isn't as familiar with ASL is a
>> very helpful way for me to "proofread" ASL signwriting for the accuracy of
>> SW spelling.
>>
>> Below is the SW spelling for ONE SECOND from SignPuddle 2.0, a video of
>> Hector's reading of ONE SECOND (I covered the English word for this sign,
>> and he did not know the meaning of this ASL sign), and a video of me doing
>> an ASL sign for ONE SECOND from different angles to show the wrist
>> side-flex. Please watch *both* videos.
>>
>> Do you think this spelling should be improved to reflect the wrist
>> side-flex? If not, could you explain to me how this spelling can be
>> correctly read to induce a wrist side-flex?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> AnnaGrace
>> <SW, ASL "one second" A copy.png>
>>  Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov
>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/138v-_UuPcOe_6E7dMrQ5FI7l7X_ILzPk/view?usp=drive_web>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:15 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> SignWriting List,
>>> November 3, 2022
>>>
>>> Hello SignWriting List, and Hector, Anna Grace and Adam,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this message, Hector. Clearly, Colombian Sign Language and
>>> American Sign Language are two separate and unique languages and both are
>>> wonderful to write ;-)
>>>
>>> I feel blessed to be able to write with all of you, from all over the
>>> world.
>>>
>>> Isn’t it fun to write our different languages and to be alble to share
>>> in this way?
>>>
>>> Purely from a movement writing perspective, the movement and position of
>>> the sign for CHEESE in ASL, based on Anna Grace’s video, and also our
>>> previous writings, shows a sign that remains contacting (RUB contact symbol
>>> shows continuous contact) while moving the hand, from the WRIST joint, from
>>> side to side - it is not flipping over - so there is a grinding feeling to
>>> it - maybe that is the way they make CHEESE in the US? (big smile) -
>>>
>>> I have added the Rub Symbol that in this case does not mean that it is
>>> rubbing in a circle - when the RUB Symbol is combined with Movement Arrows,
>>> such as the Wrist Side to Side motion, the movement follows the arrows but
>>> remains “contacting in one place” - so the RUB symbol shows continuous
>>> contact in this case:
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And there is no “flipping over” like this sign suggests:
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>
>>>
>>>  this is not correct for CHEESE because the hand is moving side to side
>>> from the WRIST, not rotating and flipping over from the elbow - so there
>>> are a lot of signs in our ASL database that need to be edited… partly
>>> because our symbols have evolved over the years - the WRIST Flex side to
>>> side was not used much until recent years…and the SignPuddle database is
>>> since 2004! So there are some old signs in there ;-)
>>>
>>> Thank you to all of you for pointing this out to us -
>>>
>>> And the sign for TRANSLATE in Colombian Sign Language, Hector, that you
>>> have written, makes sense because I have seen similar signs with the same
>>> meaning in Danish Sign Language - but this is another sign and very
>>> different movement than the American sign for CHEESE, which is not rotating
>>> but moving from the wrist side to side like a grinding motion…
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>  Coloimbian sign for TRANSLATE
>>>
>>> Shall we discuss writing the sign for TRANSLATE later? That will be a
>>> good project too -
>>>
>>> Thanks for the discussion!
>>>
>>> Val ;-)
>>>
>>> ---------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Nov 3, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Hector Devia Robayo <hdeviar at GMAIL.COM>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Greetings Valery and Anna,
>>> >
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>> >  The ASL Sign for CHEESE means nothing, it is an empty-meaning sign in
>>> the LSC (or at least I can not recall anything in the Colombian Sign
>>> Language. But in handshape, location, and movement, the nearer sign could
>>> be
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>> > , This LSC Sign stands for TO-TRANSLATE/TRANSLATION from one language
>>> into another, generally in written form, between Written and Signed Video.
>>> And comparing both signs (the ASL and the LSC) I can see I intuitively used
>>> the same symbol movement.
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton
>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <AnnaGrace's
>> movement for "one second".MOV>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>

________________________________________________

SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
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