[Sw-l] Question about wrist side-flex

Uta Meißner uta.hielscher at GMAIL.COM
Mon Nov 14 20:50:11 UTC 2022


Hi Anna Grace,

Yes, I like doing it.
Sign Search in the link "https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche" (Sign
Search -> Sign Search) finds signs whose symbols have been entered. It only
works roughly. You cannot search for rotations and orientations with it.
This is usually enough to find signs, but we want to expand the sign search.

On the left you see 4 groups:
-hand shape (Handform)
-2 hand (2-Hand)
-Contact + localization (Kontakt)
-Movement + type of movement (Bewegung)

You can choose symbols under 4 groups. Then you can see the result on the
right side. There are all signs with symbols, which you choose.

For our example with wrist. I want to see all signs with wrist.
you will see the "wrist" icon is outlined in green after you click on this
icon. And at the top of the search box, you can see the selected icon.
I know the symbol isn't that lucky, because by the symbol I mean all sorts
of wrist movements. If you have an idea, please say so. :)

[image: image.png]

Another example, you want to see all signs with handform like "U" and
movement like a circle. You can see, that result is not very good,
because for example there are "2 signs", first sign with "U" and second
sign with "circle". The order is also a challenge. :D Thanks Adam for
explaining how signbank handles it.

[image: image.png]

If you click on a picture, for example on "Uranus", then you will see a
video with sign. If you want to see all videos, you can click on "nächste
->" (next), then you can see the next word and sign.

[image: image.png]

I hope you enjoy the sign search.

Best regards
Uta

On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:40 PM Ms. AnnaGrace <msannagrace20 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Uta,
>
> Could you please attach screenshots of the link that's in your recent
> email? I can't seem to navigate it well, as I don't know German. :-D
>
> Thanks,
> AnnaGrace
>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 11:02 AM Uta Meißner <uta.hielscher at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Adam and all,
>>
>> "I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. "
>>
>> I find your statement so interesting.
>> I also wondered when I was learning signwriting why the arrows in hand
>> gestures are straight. For me, that's mostly a quarter circle.
>> I've created a lot of sign scripts, so I've noticed that sometimes it
>> doesn't matter whether it's straight or quadrant. Only the direction has to
>> be right. Because if you sign small, then the arm would rather stay still
>> and only the hand moves, the movement path is rather curvy. But if you sign
>> big, then your arm moves with you, so the path of movement can be straight
>> or curved.
>>
>> My conclusion: straight lines are easier to draw and read, but harder to
>> understand. Especially to the front or back
>>
>> Question for you: How do you write that? On the table level with an arrow
>> shaft and on the window level with a double arrow shaft. But at the rowboat
>> level?
>>
>> https://sign2mint.de/search/gebaerdensuche
>> You can select the wrist symbol for "movement", then you will get all
>> gestures with wrist movement.
>>
>> If you feel like it, you are welcome to compare videos with sign writing
>> and see whether you would also write in this way. :)
>>
>> Greetings Uta
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:05 PM Adam Frost <icemandeaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think what we are seeing here is best explained by “proximalization”,
>>> which is basically how signers with more skill in a sign language to
>>> produce their movements will switched away from proximal joints to distal
>>> joints. Or in the case of joints on the arm, move away from the shoulder
>>> towards the fingertips.
>>>
>>> Basically it all depends on how your arm is angled in relations to your
>>> hand. If your wrist is bent, your arm will not be parallel to your hand.
>>> This would mean that you would have to rotate your arm in order to achieve
>>> the movement of the hand. However, if your wrist is not bent, your arm is
>>> parallel to your hand. This would mean that your wrist would have to bend
>>> in order to achieve the movement of the hand.
>>>
>>>
>>> Let’s compare these two writing of the sign MINUTE.
>>>  and
>>>
>>> If you were to follow the first writing of minute, it would be assumed
>>> that the arm is at least somewhat parallel to the floor, which would
>>> result in the wrist being bent. That would mean there would be a
>>> rotation of the arm for this movement. If you were to follow the second
>>> writing of minute, it would be assumed that the arm is at least somewhat
>>> parallel to the wall, which would result in the wrist not being bent. That
>>> would mean there would be a wrist flex to the side for this movement.
>>>
>>> When I watched your video, your arm was neither parallel to the floor
>>> nor the wall, but angled in between. In this case since both extremes would
>>> be understood as meaning the same thing, it is ultimately up to the writer
>>> to decide which to write. They both have their pros and cons. One way might
>>> be easier to read, but another is faster to write. And there will be
>>> disagreements as to which is faster to understand.
>>>
>>> I did a small case study of finding native signers who don’t know
>>> SignWriting and asked them if the movement was a straight movement or
>>> curved movement. The majority said curved, which was supported by
>>> illustrations of the sign that I found as well. That would make sense why
>>> most people who originally wrote the sign used the rotation symbol. But
>>> that doesn’t mean that using the wrist flex is wrong.
>>>
>>> So, I just want to make clear that both writings are correct in their
>>> own ways. You as the writer choose which you feel is best. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On Nov 4, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Ms. AnnaGrace <msannagrace20 at GMAIL.COM>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Valerie and all,
>>>
>>> Valerie, thank you for the excellent explanation of the new spelling of
>>> ASL's CHEESE. It's a case of compound symbols that causes the wrist to flex
>>> side-to-side.
>>>
>>> I found *another* ASL sign that uses the wrist side-flex. It's the sign
>>> for ONE SECOND.
>>>
>>> I asked Hector to read the sign without telling him the ASL meaning.
>>> Having an objective, unbiased signer who isn't as familiar with ASL is a
>>> very helpful way for me to "proofread" ASL signwriting for the accuracy of
>>> SW spelling.
>>>
>>> Below is the SW spelling for ONE SECOND from SignPuddle 2.0, a video of
>>> Hector's reading of ONE SECOND (I covered the English word for this sign,
>>> and he did not know the meaning of this ASL sign), and a video of me doing
>>> an ASL sign for ONE SECOND from different angles to show the wrist
>>> side-flex. Please watch *both* videos.
>>>
>>> Do you think this spelling should be improved to reflect the wrist
>>> side-flex? If not, could you explain to me how this spelling can be
>>> correctly read to induce a wrist side-flex?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AnnaGrace
>>> <SW, ASL "one second" A copy.png>
>>>  Hector's reading of ASL "one second" copy.mov
>>> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/138v-_UuPcOe_6E7dMrQ5FI7l7X_ILzPk/view?usp=drive_web>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 1:15 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> SignWriting List,
>>>> November 3, 2022
>>>>
>>>> Hello SignWriting List, and Hector, Anna Grace and Adam,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for this message, Hector. Clearly, Colombian Sign Language
>>>> and American Sign Language are two separate and unique languages and both
>>>> are wonderful to write ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I feel blessed to be able to write with all of you, from all over the
>>>> world.
>>>>
>>>> Isn’t it fun to write our different languages and to be alble to share
>>>> in this way?
>>>>
>>>> Purely from a movement writing perspective, the movement and position
>>>> of the sign for CHEESE in ASL, based on Anna Grace’s video, and also our
>>>> previous writings, shows a sign that remains contacting (RUB contact symbol
>>>> shows continuous contact) while moving the hand, from the WRIST joint, from
>>>> side to side - it is not flipping over - so there is a grinding feeling to
>>>> it - maybe that is the way they make CHEESE in the US? (big smile) -
>>>>
>>>> I have added the Rub Symbol that in this case does not mean that it is
>>>> rubbing in a circle - when the RUB Symbol is combined with Movement Arrows,
>>>> such as the Wrist Side to Side motion, the movement follows the arrows but
>>>> remains “contacting in one place” - so the RUB symbol shows continuous
>>>> contact in this case:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And there is no “flipping over” like this sign suggests:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  this is not correct for CHEESE because the hand is moving side to side
>>>> from the WRIST, not rotating and flipping over from the elbow - so there
>>>> are a lot of signs in our ASL database that need to be edited… partly
>>>> because our symbols have evolved over the years - the WRIST Flex side to
>>>> side was not used much until recent years…and the SignPuddle database is
>>>> since 2004! So there are some old signs in there ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Thank you to all of you for pointing this out to us -
>>>>
>>>> And the sign for TRANSLATE in Colombian Sign Language, Hector, that you
>>>> have written, makes sense because I have seen similar signs with the same
>>>> meaning in Danish Sign Language - but this is another sign and very
>>>> different movement than the American sign for CHEESE, which is not rotating
>>>> but moving from the wrist side to side like a grinding motion…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>  Coloimbian sign for TRANSLATE
>>>>
>>>> Shall we discuss writing the sign for TRANSLATE later? That will be a
>>>> good project too -
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the discussion!
>>>>
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>> ---------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Nov 3, 2022, at 7:30 AM, Hector Devia Robayo <hdeviar at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Greetings Valery and Anna,
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>> >  The ASL Sign for CHEESE means nothing, it is an empty-meaning sign
>>>> in the LSC (or at least I can not recall anything in the Colombian Sign
>>>> Language. But in handshape, location, and movement, the nearer sign could
>>>> be
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>> > , This LSC Sign stands for TO-TRANSLATE/TRANSLATION from one language
>>>> into another, generally in written form, between Written and Signed Video.
>>>> And comparing both signs (the ASL and the LSC) I can see I intuitively used
>>>> the same symbol movement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> SignWriting List moderator
>>>> sutton at signwriting.org
>>>>
>>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
>>>> sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>>
>>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>>
>>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1 <AnnaGrace's
>>> movement for "one second".MOV>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>>
>>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>>
>>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>>
>>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>>
>>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>>
>> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>>
>> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>>
>> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
>> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>>
>> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
>> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>>
> ________________________________________________
>
> SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION
>
> Valerie Sutton SignWriting List moderator sutton at signwriting.org
>
> Post Messages to the SignWriting List: sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu
>
> SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
> http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
>
> Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
> http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
>

________________________________________________


SIGNWRITING LIST INFORMATION

Valerie Sutton
SignWriting List moderator
sutton at signwriting.org

Post Messages to the SignWriting List:
sw-l at listserv.valenciacollege.edu

SignWriting List Archives & Home Page
http://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist

Join, Leave or Change How You Receive SW List Messages
http://listserv.valenciacollege.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=SW-L&A=1
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