[Sw-l] Question about writing with Handshape from different perspectives

Sun Oct 15 15:42:39 UTC 2023

SignWriting List,
October 15, 2023.

Hello SignWriting List members, including all those who have been chatting recently… Rubens, AnnaGrace, Adam and Carlos…

Thank you for all of your insightful and instructional messages, including the wonderful videos, and very intelligent perspectives.

Since I retired in 2020, I have not been actively teaching and writing. But all of you have! And I suggest, and I'm sure you will agree, that the conversations that we're having right now are extremely important and one of the reasons that this was not officially put into textbooks is that all of us didn't have as much experience back when we were writing the original textbooks. So now all of you have more experience in writing and your thoughts and suggestions and instructions are becoming the new future writing guidelines.

The SignWriting List software has an archive of all of our messages and answers and discussions. If you need a referral or a link for a video teaching something, why not refer to the exact link in the SignWriting List archives where the topic was discussed? That could turn into a new additional textbook that presents the ideas on how to handle these important issues, and I wholeheartedly support you all in creating new instructional material. I hope you will do that. It looks like you already are doing that!

My only comment on establishing any rules, is to be careful not to limit the flexibility of the writing system. One of the biggest problems which I think you've already discussed, is the funny fact that I was a dancer. A better way to word that is to say that I was a movement notator. 

In the beginning, I presented four kinds of SignWriting there was in my terminology, phonetic, phonemic, handwriting, and shorthand. What did I mean by phonetic? I meant writing every detail possible. What did I mean by phonemic? I meant, only writing what you need to know if you already know the sign language... not so much detail, and the handwriting was just simply using your own hands and not trying to type anything. And the shorthand was a totally different system at that time, and it was remarkably successful if people wanted to train for it, but what we found out was most people didn't want to train for shorthand. So we ended up with something all blended. And there's nothing wrong with that. If we continue to document the way people write we will find a pattern or a trend and my guess is that is what's going to become the future writing system, you are the pioneers and I thank you so much for all your doing.

In the new year I hope to have an operation on my eyes so I can see better and enjoy what you're writing in an easier fashion. No matter what, I am in the background and you all are setting the new guidelines.

I hope you will use the SignWriting List as your Archives for your new materials and decisions and you can link to the messages in the Archives…

SignWriting List Archives
https://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist/

So I am reading your messages the best I can, and I am in support of your collaborations - 

THANK YOU, my dear friends -

Val ;-)

Valerie Sutton
sutton at signwriting.org
SignWriting.org

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___________________

> On Oct 14, 2023, at 5:34 PM, Carlos Cristian Libras <carloscristianlibras at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1758xrKyaGY
> 
> In this video I show that the difference is exactly in the position of the forearm, as it is what rotates the hand.
> We know through anatomy that the rotation of the wrist and hands depend on the forearm, this is the logic that was probably used in the creation of this written Parameter, taking into account it was done by a professional ballet dance, who has much more flexibility than an average person.
> 
> It is important to note in the video that some hand positions force C.M to change, this happens anatomically, it is normal.
> In my opinion, the important thing here is to understand that I can write in one way and read in another, what really matters is that the signal is read and understood.
>  If we were to follow the rules meticulously, we would have serious arthritis and arthrosis problems trying to make exact movements as written. ( Laughs laughs laughs)
> 
> Regarding the Touch movement, continuing the explanation from the previous email, any Brazilian who sees the signs as the movement arrow will know how to reproduce the signal, as the pronunciation of the signal is already understood.
> A foreigner could have more than one reading interpretation, and that's okay.
> 
> When we take a word written in English, if we don't know the pronunciation of certain letters in English (because we are Brazilians) we tend to read it with the pronunciation it is in Portuguese. If we know the phonology of English we will read according to the phonology we learned, but certain words are not pronounced exactly as they were written, as some letters may have a different sound in a given word.
> 
> In short, this means that even though we have "Exact Writing", it is natural for every language that develops to reach the point of "Meaningful Writing".
> 
> Anyone who writes by hand every day (me for example) realizes that "Exact Writing" is only used for the dictionary itself or for exact records in specific situations.
> 
> Can you understand my point of view?
> 
> On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 4:01 PM Profo Rubens Almeida <rubens.escritadesinais at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Carlos!
> This information about the position of the forearm to differentiate the perspective of the Handshape, must be related to the inclination of the Handshape under the wall plane, I believe... But, anyway, I'm looking forward to watching your explanation in the video you will send to us, and thus better understand your observation.
>  
> Signed hugs!
> 
> Em sáb., 14 de out. de 2023 às 15:23, Carlos Cristian Libras <carloscristianlibras at gmail.com> escreveu:
> Greetings to everyone, in fact I have another opinion on how to differentiate the two C.M. It has to do with the position of the forearm. However, the simplest answer is that in every language small phonological variations are okay to be exchanged. There's even a name for this in linguistics, it's called "allophony". There are two ways to write signs using the signwriting method; the first being 100% faithful to the phonological representation and the second representing the sign that was written Without much phonic detail. This is wonderful, as signwriting is the only current writing system that allows At this moment I am not in an environment that allows me to record video to show my perception of the difference in the position of the forearm that interferes with this. But I can then prepare a video and send it. Adam's explanation matches allophony, I agree, but there are more ways to understand this situation, so I would like to have the opportunity to show you later Of course, if you have the patience to put up with me. 
> 
> Em sáb., 14 de out. de 2023 3:14 PM, Profo Rubens Almeida <rubens.escritadesinais at gmail.com> escreveu:
> Hi AnnaGrace, Adam, Val and SignWriting List Members...
>  
> You are very attentive, I thank you immensely for your kindness in helping me with my question!
> AnnaGrace, upon your request, will be happy to teach you how to edit similar videos. This video was edited using the Microsoft program - PowerPoint. I need to complete some projects, including the production of a book that I will use in the next SignWriting course in the first half of 2024. As soon as I complete them, I will record editing video classes in PowerPoint with a focus on producing materials in SignWriting. My proposal is to present it with explanations in LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) with translation into Portuguese in the form of audios and with subtitles in English with review by someone fluent, considering that I do not have command of English, unfortunately.
> Thank you very much Adam for the clarifications, now it is very clear about when to use the Handshape symbols from different perspectives, when it is not possible to write them with the same perspective. The examples used were excellent, they helped me understand well.
> Val, if you can find more guidance in the publications, it will help me a lot to reference this information in the book I am producing, which I mentioned above. But, in any case, I will quote the guidelines contained here, in the SignWriting List forum. Thank you very much Val for the encouragement and kind message.
> I am very grateful to everyone!
> Signed hugs!
> 
> Em sáb., 14 de out. de 2023 às 13:27, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> escreveu:
> SignWriting List
> October 14, 2023
> 
> Hello Rubens, AnnaGrace, Adam and SignWriting List Members...
> 
> I agree with all three of your messages on this thread. Thank you, Rubens, for creating such a clear and informative video:
> 
> https://youtu.be/khEbbOUk2-c
> 
> I agree with AnnaGrace that your videos are so beautiful and I too would love to learn how you create such good looking and instructive videos. You must have quite a library of videos by now that teach SignWriting. Thank you for these.
> 
> And just as Adam has already explained so clearly, although it is true that it generally is better to use the same perspective within the writing of a sign, there are times when it is clearer to use two perspectives, as Adam illustrated. Sometimes the thumb, for example, can get in the way… to make sure the writing is clear, SignWriting offers the writer a choice of perspectives… In the beginning we were concerned that this could be confusing but as far as we can tell, it is not confusing - in fact, the flexibility of the writing system is one of the reasons it is used on a daily bases around the world…
> 
> So your video shows it beautifully. It is best to try to use the same perspective, but when that is not practical, you are welcome to mix perspectives.
> 
> As far as a textbook or instruction place on the web that explains this - hmmmm - I will look at our books. I think we do need to improve our instruction so I will get back to you if I find something.
> 
> Also, different perspectives when writing also are mixed in regards to Overhead View, Side View, and so forth… There was a recent message from Josenilson asking about this very topic - writing from the Side View
> 
> Thank you for your messages!
> 
> Val ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Valerie Sutton
> sutton at signwiting.org
> SignWriting.org
> 
> ---
> > On Oct 14, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Profo Rubens Almeida <rubens.escritadesinais at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > 
> > Hello to all SignWriting List members!
> > We know that the SignWriting system allows you to write a sign with more than one possibility, that is, two or more ways of writing the same sign. My question is about the writings that can be recorded with the Handshape in the same perspective and that can also be recorded with the Handshape in different perspectives, whether they can have a preference of choice, aiming to propose a writing pattern.
> > To illustrate, I made a short video containing an example of writing that fits this question.
> > Follow the video link below:
> > https://youtu.be/khEbbOUk2-c
> > Experienced SignWriting writers have already advised me that it is preferable to choose writing that contains handshapes in the same perspective. Therefore, I would like to know if there is any publication that makes exactly this recommendation.
> > Thank you for everyone's attention!
> > Signed hugs!
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
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