[Sw-l] Question about writing with Handshape from different perspectives

Sun Oct 15 00:34:07 UTC 2023

see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1758xrKyaGY

In this video I show that the difference is exactly in the position of the
forearm, as it is what rotates the hand.
We know through anatomy that the rotation of the wrist and hands depend on
the forearm, this is the logic that was probably used in the creation of
this written Parameter, taking into account it was done by a professional
ballet dance, who has much more flexibility than an average person.

It is important to note in the video that some hand positions force C.M to
change, this happens anatomically, it is normal.
In my opinion, the important thing here is to understand that I can write
in one way and read in another, what really matters is that the signal is
read and understood.
 If we were to follow the rules meticulously, we would have serious
arthritis and arthrosis problems trying to make exact movements as written.
( Laughs laughs laughs)

Regarding the Touch movement, continuing the explanation from the previous
email, any Brazilian who sees the signs as the movement arrow will know how
to reproduce the signal, as the pronunciation of the signal is already
understood.
A foreigner could have more than one reading interpretation, and that's
okay.

When we take a word written in English, if we don't know the pronunciation
of certain letters in English (because we are Brazilians) we tend to read
it with the pronunciation it is in Portuguese. If we know the phonology of
English we will read according to the phonology we learned, but certain
words are not pronounced exactly as they were written, as some letters may
have a different sound in a given word.

In short, this means that even though we have "Exact Writing", it is
natural for every language that develops to reach the point of "Meaningful
Writing".

Anyone who writes by hand every day (me for example) realizes that "Exact
Writing" is only used for the dictionary itself or for exact records in
specific situations.

Can you understand my point of view?

On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 4:01 PM Profo Rubens Almeida <
rubens.escritadesinais at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Carlos!
>
> This information about the position of the forearm to differentiate the
> perspective of the Handshape, must be related to the inclination of the
> Handshape under the wall plane, I believe... But, anyway, I'm looking
> forward to watching your explanation in the video you will send to us, and
> thus better understand your observation.
>
>
>
> Signed hugs!
>
> Em sáb., 14 de out. de 2023 às 15:23, Carlos Cristian Libras <
> carloscristianlibras at gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> Greetings to everyone, in fact I have another opinion on how to
>> differentiate the two C.M. It has to do with the position of the forearm.
>> However, the simplest answer is that in every language small phonological
>> variations are okay to be exchanged. There's even a name for this in
>> linguistics, it's called "allophony". There are two ways to write signs
>> using the signwriting method; the first being 100% faithful to the
>> phonological representation and the second representing the sign that was
>> written Without much phonic detail. This is wonderful, as signwriting is
>> the only current writing system that allows At this moment I am not in an
>> environment that allows me to record video to show my perception of the
>> difference in the position of the forearm that interferes with this. But I
>> can then prepare a video and send it. Adam's explanation matches allophony,
>> I agree, but there are more ways to understand this situation, so I would
>> like to have the opportunity to show you later Of course, if you have the
>> patience to put up with me.
>>
>> Em sáb., 14 de out. de 2023 3:14 PM, Profo Rubens Almeida <
>> rubens.escritadesinais at gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>>> Hi AnnaGrace, Adam, Val and SignWriting List Members...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are very attentive, I thank you immensely for your kindness in
>>> helping me with my question!
>>>
>>> AnnaGrace, upon your request, will be happy to teach you how to edit
>>> similar videos. This video was edited using the Microsoft program -
>>> PowerPoint. I need to complete some projects, including the production of a
>>> book that I will use in the next SignWriting course in the first half of
>>> 2024. As soon as I complete them, I will record editing video classes in
>>> PowerPoint with a focus on producing materials in SignWriting. My proposal
>>> is to present it with explanations in LIBRAS (Brazilian Sign Language) with
>>> translation into Portuguese in the form of audios and with subtitles in
>>> English with review by someone fluent, considering that I do not have
>>> command of English, unfortunately.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much Adam for the clarifications, now it is very clear
>>> about when to use the Handshape symbols from different perspectives, when
>>> it is not possible to write them with the same perspective. The examples
>>> used were excellent, they helped me understand well.
>>>
>>> Val, if you can find more guidance in the publications, it will help me
>>> a lot to reference this information in the book I am producing, which I
>>> mentioned above. But, in any case, I will quote the guidelines contained
>>> here, in the SignWriting List forum. Thank you very much Val for the
>>> encouragement and kind message.
>>>
>>> I am very grateful to everyone!
>>>
>>> Signed hugs!
>>>
>>> Em sáb., 14 de out. de 2023 às 13:27, Valerie Sutton <
>>> sutton at signwriting.org> escreveu:
>>>
>>>> SignWriting List
>>>> October 14, 2023
>>>>
>>>> Hello Rubens, AnnaGrace, Adam and SignWriting List Members...
>>>>
>>>> I agree with all three of your messages on this thread. Thank you,
>>>> Rubens, for creating such a clear and informative video:
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/khEbbOUk2-c
>>>>
>>>> I agree with AnnaGrace that your videos are so beautiful and I too
>>>> would love to learn how you create such good looking and instructive
>>>> videos. You must have quite a library of videos by now that teach
>>>> SignWriting. Thank you for these.
>>>>
>>>> And just as Adam has already explained so clearly, although it is true
>>>> that it generally is better to use the same perspective within the writing
>>>> of a sign, there are times when it is clearer to use two perspectives, as
>>>> Adam illustrated. Sometimes the thumb, for example, can get in the way… to
>>>> make sure the writing is clear, SignWriting offers the writer a choice of
>>>> perspectives… In the beginning we were concerned that this could be
>>>> confusing but as far as we can tell, it is not confusing - in fact, the
>>>> flexibility of the writing system is one of the reasons it is used on a
>>>> daily bases around the world…
>>>>
>>>> So your video shows it beautifully. It is best to try to use the same
>>>> perspective, but when that is not practical, you are welcome to mix
>>>> perspectives.
>>>>
>>>> As far as a textbook or instruction place on the web that explains this
>>>> - hmmmm - I will look at our books. I think we do need to improve our
>>>> instruction so I will get back to you if I find something.
>>>>
>>>> Also, different perspectives when writing also are mixed in regards to
>>>> Overhead View, Side View, and so forth… There was a recent message from
>>>> Josenilson asking about this very topic - writing from the Side View
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your messages!
>>>>
>>>> Val ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Valerie Sutton
>>>> sutton at signwiting.org
>>>> SignWriting.org
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> > On Oct 14, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Profo Rubens Almeida <
>>>> rubens.escritadesinais at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Hello to all SignWriting List members!
>>>> > We know that the SignWriting system allows you to write a sign with
>>>> more than one possibility, that is, two or more ways of writing the same
>>>> sign. My question is about the writings that can be recorded with the
>>>> Handshape in the same perspective and that can also be recorded with the
>>>> Handshape in different perspectives, whether they can have a preference of
>>>> choice, aiming to propose a writing pattern.
>>>> > To illustrate, I made a short video containing an example of writing
>>>> that fits this question.
>>>> > Follow the video link below:
>>>> > https://youtu.be/khEbbOUk2-c
>>>> > Experienced SignWriting writers have already advised me that it is
>>>> preferable to choose writing that contains handshapes in the same
>>>> perspective. Therefore, I would like to know if there is any publication
>>>> that makes exactly this recommendation.
>>>> > Thank you for everyone's attention!
>>>> > Signed hugs!
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> >
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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