[Sw-l] Revisiting Mundbildschrift

Wed Jul 3 17:20:27 UTC 2024

Hey everyone!

Thanks for this conversation, I am also in this "telepathy" thread - you
will see in the symposium.

I had not looked into Sign Maker before, even though I did know Steve had
built and provided it to the community. It addresses a problem I have with
a project of mine. Again, thanks for sharing the links!

Em seg., 1 de jul. de 2024 às 20:58, Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
escreveu:

> SignWriting List
> July 1st, 2024
>
> Hello Peter-Jakob!
> Yes, I agree this does prove that we have “SignWriting telepathy”!
>
> And I think it is good we are communicating…
>
> And I am happy there is still a Delegs Editor - thank you for the link:
>
> https://apps.delegs.de/delegseditor/#
>
> I am sure you know that years ago, before the Delegs Editor was under
> development, that Delegs was connected with SignPuddle 2? We used to have a
> lot of fun, writing the signs in the SignPuddle 2 Editor, and saving the
> signs in the SignPuddle 2 dictionaries, and then somehow the magic of
> programming, everyone worked together to link SignPuddle 2 dictionaries
> with Delegs and we could use Delegs for the PDF Editor and documents - it
> was a wonderful collaboration and still is, of course.
>
> And Amit is correct that the newer SignMaker 2017 (
> https://www.signbank.org/signmaker.html) and SignMaker 2022, and also
> Steve’s SW Web Components can all be used to assist Delegs users and
> developers -
>
> Sutton SignWriting Web Components
> https://github.com/sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components
>
> This is all based on a long history. Stefan was an expert at SignWriter
> DOS, developed by Richard Gleaves, and his students typed volumes of
> documents using SignWriter DOS. It was a splendid time in SignWriting
> history and I wish to this day that the TV program that was made of
> Stefan's students using SignWriter DOS in Germany at the Osnabruck School
> for the Deaf, would give us permission to aire the program, which we have a
> copy of, with our material in the program, but we can’t seem to get
> permission to show the program on YouTube - it shows that Deaf children
> really typed DGS, at remarkable speeds, and were really learning language
> from the experience.
>
> Anyway, Stefan and his students ran out of space for over 10,000 entries
> in their MS-DOS dictionary, so that is why Steve Slevinski’s SignPuddle 2
> worked so well - because Stefan could have 20,000 or 30,000 or however many
> entries he wanted to save - so for many years we had a great time using an
> email feature called SignMail in SignPuddle 2 with Stefan’s students -
>
> But that stopped because SignMail could no longer work for some reason,
> and so Delegs became an important development! So happy that you all got
> funding and so forth - but now, if I understand you correctly, that era is
> gone also and you need to develop a new Editor?
>
> Can you hook to SignMaker 2017 or back to SignPuddle 2 as before?
>
> Val ;-)
>
> PS. We also have a SignWriter Java program, and Python program - all these
> are very old but you never know - for example
> https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/index.html
>
> ------------------------
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 2024, at 8:51 AM, Craxton Peter Jakob <
> Peter-Jakob.Craxton at haw-landshut.de> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Val, hello everyone,
> >
> > that is a perfect prove for our SignWriting telepathy. ;-)
> >
> > There is still a active Delegs editor (
> https://apps.delegs.de/delegseditor/#) but it is not more supported by
> WPS.
> >
> > It means that we cannot save new files of ISWA signs. At least, we can
> save the signwriting text in PDF.
> > The upgrading of editor program is difficult because we need find a
> professional person with the knowledge of Google Web Toolkit.
> >
> > It would be fanastic if we could rebuild the editor program with other
> code program (e.g. Python, C++ or Java), where we can give more inputs. I
> will talk with my colleague about rebuilding editor programm.
> >
> > I wish you all good start into the new week!
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: Sw-l <sw-l-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von
> Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Juni 2024 22:56:59
> > An: sw-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > Betreff: Re: [Sw-l] Revisiting Mundbildschrift
> >  SignWriting List
> > June 27, 2024
> >
> > Hello Amit, Stefan and everyone!
> >
> > I have had such a remarkable and unusual day. The discussion of
> Mundbildschrift is very meaningful, and then our internet has been down in
> my home so I could not respond immediately. It just came on again. And
> guess who called me while I had no internet? Stefan!
> >
> > Stefan is retired as a teacher of Deaf children, as you know, but he
> calls me sometimes and I told him - “Have you seen our discussion about
> Mundbildschrift on the SW List?”
> >
> > And he had not realized we were talking about it!
> >
> > It was a coincidence that he called me today. One of the many things he
> mentioned to me today was his students and he could read it like reading
> German words - they could and do read the symbols just like reading words
> and that it evolved over time - so this must be the reason why we see it
> changing over the years - the students wrote it by hand on the green board,
> so the symbols got exagerated - also remember there is the DELEGS computer
> program - I do not know what they have stored in their Editor program there
> may be symbols there.
> >
> > So I believe you need to know how he constructed the special symbols,
> with what pieces of symbols, to make his Mundbildschrift go fast while
> using SignPuddle 2?
> >
> > I have a lot more I can tell you but at least I am back on the internet!
> Thank you to the internet Gods ;-)
> >
> > Also Stefan mentioned that he animated it too -
> >
> >
> > <Valerie_Signature_5.jpg>
> >
> >
> > Val ;-)
> >
> > Valerie Sutton
> > sutton at signwriting.org
> > SignWriting.org
> >
> > Post a message to the SignWriting List:
> > Sw-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
> >
> > Join the SignWriting List:
> > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> >
> > SignWriting List Archives
> > https://www.signwriting.org/forums/swlist
> > _____________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 27, 2024, at 12:24 PM, Amit Moryossef <amitmoryossef at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Val!
> > > Unfortunately, in his old writing, he didn't really conform to the
> guidebook he released -
> > > for example, a long "a" sound has this strange shape in the
> manual:<image.png>>
> > >
> > > but in his writing, he wrote a normal "a" like in Saal or
> Bahn:<image.png><image.png>>
> > >
> > > And this pattern persists with other shapes, like "ɛː" which is
> written as an "e" or "ç" written like an "h".
> > >
> > > Therefore, I decided to populate the values with his writing style for
> now, and include the original images he made to compare.
> > > Here is the current version, with a comparison:
> > >
> https://github.com/sign-language-processing/signwriting/tree/main/signwriting/mouthing
> > >
> > > Amit
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 5:47 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> wrote:
> > > SignWriting List
> > > June 27, 2024
> > >
> > > Hello Amit, AnnaGrace, Craxton, Stefan -
> > >
> > > There are so many ways to find the symbols that are used to write
> Mundbildschrift in SignPuddle 2. Here is how I will do this, so you can see
> the symbols that are used from the current International SignWriting
> Alphabet 2010. First I went to SignPuddle 2 and chose the German flag to
> take me to the German Sign Language Dictionary area. Then, in the German
> Sign Language Dictionary, I searched for the source “SW” which stands for
> Stefan Woehrmann. So I found a listing of all of the signs that Stefan had
> written using the symbols from ISWA 2010.
> > >
> > > So all of the signs he wrote appear in a long list. I chose this one:
> > >
> > > https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=8&sgn=53&sid=3714
> > >
> > > It is PuddlePage 3714. It is the number “1000”, tausend, written by
> Stefan on September 14, 2007. SignPuddle 2 will give you the FSW and the
> SWU for that writing, which gives you the symbols he used from the ISWA
> 2010 at that time. This is one of several ways to find the symbols he used
> that are already in FSW and SWU. I will show you other methods of searching
> next.
> > >
> > > Here is a screen capture of that page:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Jun 27, 2024, at 2:26 AM, Amit Moryossef <amitmoryossef at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Craxton. If you could connect me with Thimo Kleyboldt that
> would be great.
> > > >
> > > > And thanks Valerie! with the updated resource from 2014, and
> pointing out the inhale/exhale symbols, we are now done with 39/49 visemes!
> > > > Only 10 more to go. If you have any ideas on how to address them,
> that would be great :)
> > > >
> > > > what are the symbols used for the mouths here?>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > for these - the mouth is specifically not round. what symbol should
> I alternate for?>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > not sure how to draw this mouth and tongue: (different than "n")>
> > > >
> > > > these three are also quite special, any ideas?>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 12:18 AM Valerie Sutton <
> sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
> > > > SignWriting List
> > > > June 26, 2024
> > > >
> > > > Hello Amit,
> > > > Thank you for this important interest in Mundbildschrift.
> > > >
> > > > And thank you, Stefan Woehrmann, for giving Mundbildschrift to the
> world. I used to call it “SpeechWriting” in English, but others called it
> LipWriting or Mouth Writing ;-)
> > > >
> > > > No matter what it was called, it is very innovative and successful.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding documents, there are other publications on Mundbildschrift
> at later dates after 2010, in books as well as the internet. I will try to
> provide you with some links. It started to spread in Brazil too, so it is
> not only Germany.
> > > >
> > > > For example, here are some published in 2014, at the SignWriting
> Symposium 2014:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0002.html
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_Abstract_Woerhmann's_SpeechWriting_Teaches_Spoken_Language.pdf
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_01_How_I_teach_Mundbildschrift.pdf
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_02_Mundbilder_in_SignWriting_and_Spelling_rules.pdf
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_03_ABC_in_Mundbildschrift_For_English.pdf
> > > >
> > > >
> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_04_ABC_Tabelle_neu_SW_Deutsch.pdf
> > > >
> > > > This one is dated 2014
> > > >
> https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_05_Overview_of_Symbols_in_Mundbildschrift_Juli_2014.pdf
> > > >
> > > > All of the symbols in Mundbildschrift originally were based on the
> symbols in Sutton SignWriting, but then they were somewhat exagerated or
> stylized to look a little different but very close to the original…
> > > >
> > > > For a sample, look at the attached screen capture from SWU - these
> are SignWriting symbols for Air - they look slightly different, but very
> close to the ones used in Mundbildschrift
> > > >
> > > > And they are not arm lines!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Jun 26, 2024, at 8:29 AM, Amit Moryossef <
> amitmoryossef at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > I've been interested in writing mouthing using SignWriting, and
> encountered Mundbildschrift,
> > > > > with the latest documentation being here from 2010.
> > > > >
> > > > > I modernized that document, collecting all the samples, correcting
> IPA when needed, and re-writing the SignWriting in FSW instead of using
> images.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> https://github.com/sign-language-processing/signwriting/tree/main/signwriting/mouthing
> > > > > However, as you can see, I am missing many writings, specifically
> ones that are not easily available, for example:>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Therefore, I would appreciate any help to modernize this, by
> sending me any of the missing writing from the table or discussing
> alternatives. In my opinion, the writing should be efficient - I could
> write the last image above (with a plosive) using 6 different arms, but
> that seems like a waste.
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking forward to seeing your suggestions!
> > > > > Amit
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Sw-l mailing list
> > > > > Sw-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sw-l mailing list
> > > > Sw-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Sw-l mailing list
> > > > Sw-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
> > > > https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sw-l
> > >
> > > Val ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Valerie Sutton
> > > sutton at signwiting.org
> > > SignWriting.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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