[Sw-l] Revisiting Mundbildschrift
Valerie Sutton
sutton at signwriting.org
Mon Jul 1 23:57:53 UTC 2024
SignWriting List
July 1st, 2024
Hello Peter-Jakob!
Yes, I agree this does prove that we have “SignWriting telepathy”!
And I think it is good we are communicating…
And I am happy there is still a Delegs Editor - thank you for the link:
https://apps.delegs.de/delegseditor/#
I am sure you know that years ago, before the Delegs Editor was under development, that Delegs was connected with SignPuddle 2? We used to have a lot of fun, writing the signs in the SignPuddle 2 Editor, and saving the signs in the SignPuddle 2 dictionaries, and then somehow the magic of programming, everyone worked together to link SignPuddle 2 dictionaries with Delegs and we could use Delegs for the PDF Editor and documents - it was a wonderful collaboration and still is, of course.
And Amit is correct that the newer SignMaker 2017 (https://www.signbank.org/signmaker.html) and SignMaker 2022, and also Steve’s SW Web Components can all be used to assist Delegs users and developers -
Sutton SignWriting Web Components
https://github.com/sutton-signwriting/sgnw-components
This is all based on a long history. Stefan was an expert at SignWriter DOS, developed by Richard Gleaves, and his students typed volumes of documents using SignWriter DOS. It was a splendid time in SignWriting history and I wish to this day that the TV program that was made of Stefan's students using SignWriter DOS in Germany at the Osnabruck School for the Deaf, would give us permission to aire the program, which we have a copy of, with our material in the program, but we can’t seem to get permission to show the program on YouTube - it shows that Deaf children really typed DGS, at remarkable speeds, and were really learning language from the experience.
Anyway, Stefan and his students ran out of space for over 10,000 entries in their MS-DOS dictionary, so that is why Steve Slevinski’s SignPuddle 2 worked so well - because Stefan could have 20,000 or 30,000 or however many entries he wanted to save - so for many years we had a great time using an email feature called SignMail in SignPuddle 2 with Stefan’s students -
But that stopped because SignMail could no longer work for some reason, and so Delegs became an important development! So happy that you all got funding and so forth - but now, if I understand you correctly, that era is gone also and you need to develop a new Editor?
Can you hook to SignMaker 2017 or back to SignPuddle 2 as before?
Val ;-)
PS. We also have a SignWriter Java program, and Python program - all these are very old but you never know - for example https://www.signwriting.org/forums/software/sw50/index.html
------------------------
> On Jul 1, 2024, at 8:51 AM, Craxton Peter Jakob <Peter-Jakob.Craxton at haw-landshut.de> wrote:
>
> Hello Val, hello everyone,
>
> that is a perfect prove for our SignWriting telepathy. ;-)
>
> There is still a active Delegs editor (https://apps.delegs.de/delegseditor/#) but it is not more supported by WPS.
>
> It means that we cannot save new files of ISWA signs. At least, we can save the signwriting text in PDF.
> The upgrading of editor program is difficult because we need find a professional person with the knowledge of Google Web Toolkit.
>
> It would be fanastic if we could rebuild the editor program with other code program (e.g. Python, C++ or Java), where we can give more inputs. I will talk with my colleague about rebuilding editor programm.
>
> I wish you all good start into the new week!
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Von: Sw-l <sw-l-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org>
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Juni 2024 22:56:59
> An: sw-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
> Betreff: Re: [Sw-l] Revisiting Mundbildschrift
> SignWriting List
> June 27, 2024
>
> Hello Amit, Stefan and everyone!
>
> I have had such a remarkable and unusual day. The discussion of Mundbildschrift is very meaningful, and then our internet has been down in my home so I could not respond immediately. It just came on again. And guess who called me while I had no internet? Stefan!
>
> Stefan is retired as a teacher of Deaf children, as you know, but he calls me sometimes and I told him - “Have you seen our discussion about Mundbildschrift on the SW List?”
>
> And he had not realized we were talking about it!
>
> It was a coincidence that he called me today. One of the many things he mentioned to me today was his students and he could read it like reading German words - they could and do read the symbols just like reading words and that it evolved over time - so this must be the reason why we see it changing over the years - the students wrote it by hand on the green board, so the symbols got exagerated - also remember there is the DELEGS computer program - I do not know what they have stored in their Editor program there may be symbols there.
>
> So I believe you need to know how he constructed the special symbols, with what pieces of symbols, to make his Mundbildschrift go fast while using SignPuddle 2?
>
> I have a lot more I can tell you but at least I am back on the internet! Thank you to the internet Gods ;-)
>
> Also Stefan mentioned that he animated it too -
>
>
> <Valerie_Signature_5.jpg>
>
>
> Val ;-)
>
> Valerie Sutton
> sutton at signwriting.org
> SignWriting.org
>
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>
> > On Jun 27, 2024, at 12:24 PM, Amit Moryossef <amitmoryossef at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Val!
> > Unfortunately, in his old writing, he didn't really conform to the guidebook he released -
> > for example, a long "a" sound has this strange shape in the manual:<image.png>>
> >
> > but in his writing, he wrote a normal "a" like in Saal or Bahn:<image.png><image.png>>
> >
> > And this pattern persists with other shapes, like "ɛː" which is written as an "e" or "ç" written like an "h".
> >
> > Therefore, I decided to populate the values with his writing style for now, and include the original images he made to compare.
> > Here is the current version, with a comparison:
> > https://github.com/sign-language-processing/signwriting/tree/main/signwriting/mouthing
> >
> > Amit
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 5:47 PM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
> > SignWriting List
> > June 27, 2024
> >
> > Hello Amit, AnnaGrace, Craxton, Stefan -
> >
> > There are so many ways to find the symbols that are used to write Mundbildschrift in SignPuddle 2. Here is how I will do this, so you can see the symbols that are used from the current International SignWriting Alphabet 2010. First I went to SignPuddle 2 and chose the German flag to take me to the German Sign Language Dictionary area. Then, in the German Sign Language Dictionary, I searched for the source “SW” which stands for Stefan Woehrmann. So I found a listing of all of the signs that Stefan had written using the symbols from ISWA 2010.
> >
> > So all of the signs he wrote appear in a long list. I chose this one:
> >
> > https://www.signbank.org/signpuddle2.0/canvas.php?ui=8&sgn=53&sid=3714
> >
> > It is PuddlePage 3714. It is the number “1000”, tausend, written by Stefan on September 14, 2007. SignPuddle 2 will give you the FSW and the SWU for that writing, which gives you the symbols he used from the ISWA 2010 at that time. This is one of several ways to find the symbols he used that are already in FSW and SWU. I will show you other methods of searching next.
> >
> > Here is a screen capture of that page:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 27, 2024, at 2:26 AM, Amit Moryossef <amitmoryossef at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, Craxton. If you could connect me with Thimo Kleyboldt that would be great.
> > >
> > > And thanks Valerie! with the updated resource from 2014, and pointing out the inhale/exhale symbols, we are now done with 39/49 visemes!
> > > Only 10 more to go. If you have any ideas on how to address them, that would be great :)
> > >
> > > what are the symbols used for the mouths here?>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > for these - the mouth is specifically not round. what symbol should I alternate for?>
> > >
> > >
> > > not sure how to draw this mouth and tongue: (different than "n")>
> > >
> > > these three are also quite special, any ideas?>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 12:18 AM Valerie Sutton <sutton at signwriting.org> wrote:
> > > SignWriting List
> > > June 26, 2024
> > >
> > > Hello Amit,
> > > Thank you for this important interest in Mundbildschrift.
> > >
> > > And thank you, Stefan Woehrmann, for giving Mundbildschrift to the world. I used to call it “SpeechWriting” in English, but others called it LipWriting or Mouth Writing ;-)
> > >
> > > No matter what it was called, it is very innovative and successful.
> > >
> > > Regarding documents, there are other publications on Mundbildschrift at later dates after 2010, in books as well as the internet. I will try to provide you with some links. It started to spread in Brazil too, so it is not only Germany.
> > >
> > > For example, here are some published in 2014, at the SignWriting Symposium 2014:
> > >
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/presentation0002.html
> > >
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_Abstract_Woerhmann's_SpeechWriting_Teaches_Spoken_Language.pdf
> > >
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_01_How_I_teach_Mundbildschrift.pdf
> > >
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_02_Mundbilder_in_SignWriting_and_Spelling_rules.pdf
> > >
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_03_ABC_in_Mundbildschrift_For_English.pdf
> > >
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_04_ABC_Tabelle_neu_SW_Deutsch.pdf
> > >
> > > This one is dated 2014
> > > https://www.signwriting.org/symposium/archive/sws0002_05_Overview_of_Symbols_in_Mundbildschrift_Juli_2014.pdf
> > >
> > > All of the symbols in Mundbildschrift originally were based on the symbols in Sutton SignWriting, but then they were somewhat exagerated or stylized to look a little different but very close to the original…
> > >
> > > For a sample, look at the attached screen capture from SWU - these are SignWriting symbols for Air - they look slightly different, but very close to the ones used in Mundbildschrift
> > >
> > > And they are not arm lines!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Jun 26, 2024, at 8:29 AM, Amit Moryossef <amitmoryossef at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > I've been interested in writing mouthing using SignWriting, and encountered Mundbildschrift,
> > > > with the latest documentation being here from 2010.
> > > >
> > > > I modernized that document, collecting all the samples, correcting IPA when needed, and re-writing the SignWriting in FSW instead of using images.
> > > >
> > > > https://github.com/sign-language-processing/signwriting/tree/main/signwriting/mouthing
> > > > However, as you can see, I am missing many writings, specifically ones that are not easily available, for example:>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, I would appreciate any help to modernize this, by sending me any of the missing writing from the table or discussing alternatives. In my opinion, the writing should be efficient - I could write the last image above (with a plosive) using 6 different arms, but that seems like a waste.
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward to seeing your suggestions!
> > > > Amit
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> > Val ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Valerie Sutton
> > sutton at signwiting.org
> > SignWriting.org
> >
> >
> >
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