Savarkar, Hindutva (closure), Kak's objection.

[Anish Koshy]

VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
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          John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
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Dear moderators,

A lot of fringe factors may be part of linguistic research, but the
points raised by Mr Gogate  or comments as he called them have no
relevance for linguists. Hence, as Dr Adil suggested, please have a
stricter monitoring policy in place. One does not expect a mail from
VYAKARAN to be filled with people's fascist ideas about religious
conversions, religious fundamentalism and terrorism being
fantastically related to one religious group or the other - all in the
pretext and misguided notion that language research also encompasses
relation of 'popular' understanding or 'public assumption' of
relations between religions and languages. It is not that we do not
have our own opinions about the issues raised by Mr G, but we choose
not to respond to them in a forum meant, as the email address
suggests, for "SOUTH ASIAN LINGUISTS".

regards
Anish Koshy


On 13/03/2010, Madhukar N. Gogate <mngogate1932 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
> Editors:  Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York
>           John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
> Details:  Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO VYAKARAN
> Subscribe:Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say:
>           SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME
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>
> Aadil Kak is right. Only comments 11, 12 in my mail, bear
> on language, that too with respect to social factors. Kak or
> anyone else, expecting academic issues, or notices, calls
> of some language conferences, should not leave the forum
> because of my mails. I thought socio-linguistics are part of
> language studies. What language and script to be used on
> coins or vehicle plates in a multilingual country ? Hundreds
> of English words entering Indian languages. How to modify
> them within Marathi, Hindi etc? How to write say Company,
> equivalent to kampani or kampanee? Religions too step in.
> Wrongly, Urdu in Arabic script is called Muslim language.
> Riots take place on issue of languages. Once a while, if a
> message comes, not strictly academic, it can be deleted.
> My mails are usually bimonthly, showing Marathi samples
> in Devanagari and Roman (based on symbols available on
> current machines serving English. No diacritical marks). I
> shall stop mails, if the Moderator directs. -- M. N. Gogate
> PS. You may see E01, E04, E15 in (www.mngogate.com)
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 13/3/10, aadil kak <aadilaminkak at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>
> From: aadil kak <aadilaminkak at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Savarkar, Hindutva (closure)
> To: VYAKARAN at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
> Date: Saturday, 13 March, 2010, 1:48 AM
>
>
> VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia,
> Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck,
> Germany Details: Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> I think i am missing something here.. Is this forum a linguistics forum, an
> academic forum or a forum of something else? Do we have a moderator around?
> This is the second time we have received mails from Mr Gogate and they dont
> seem to be relevant. i guess there will be forums for this stuff somewhere
> else. Please let me know if this forum is a forum of politics,
> society-matters, etc. if so i would like to discontinue being a part of this
> forum. somebody please let me know.
> Regards,
> Aadil
>
> --- On Fri, 3/12/10, Madhukar N. Gogate <mngogate1932 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>
> From: Madhukar N. Gogate <mngogate1932 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Savarkar, Hindutva (closure)
> To: VYAKARAN at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
> Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 3:14 PM
>
>
> VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia,
> Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck,
> Germany Details: Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO
> VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say:
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>
>
> =========================================
> Subject >> Savarkar, Hindutva    Pune, 12 March 2010
> I received many comments by email, phones etc. I give
> briefly few. Think over. Thanks, I close the topic - MNG
>
> Comment 1
> Important points have been raised. Food for thought.
>
> Comment 2
> Instances of Christian terrorism in north-east states.
> Monetary temptations too.
>
> Comment 3
> Social reform is slow process, spread on many years
> and generations. Present day Hindus dont subscribe
> to Untouchability. They are sorry their ancestors had
> practised it. Muslim society very very slow to reforms.
> Ofcourse many patriotic Muslims have enriched India.
>
> Comment 4
> In view of Tikekar's letter, MNG's apology is sporting.
> Terrorists kill innocents, some of their religion too.
>
> Comment 5
> Educate Western media. They say a "Hindu" fanatic
> killed Gandhi. They dont say that "Christian" fanatic
> killed Lincoln, or Kennedy.
>
> Comment 6
> Basically Hindus tolerant, peace-loving. Jews, Parsis
> of foreign origin settled in India comfortably.
>
> Comment 7
> In 2002, terrorism deaths were less in Kashmir, much
> more in Gujarat, a record number in that decade.
>
> Comment 8
> "The Roots of Terrorism" year 2009, edited by Anand
> Shankar (Shraddha Prakashan, Delhi) is eye-opener.
> It contains articles, by many intellectuals. One says
> that there are 32000 Madarsas in India having 74000
> teachers and 18 lakh students, getting huge finances
> from oil rich middle-east. They teach students to hate
> non-Muslims, eventually become terrorists (Jihad etc).
>
> Comment 9
> Savarkar was great patriot. He was against casteism
> and untouchability. His Devanagari script reforms are
> irrelevant now, since computers tackle traditional lipi.
>
> Comment 10
> There are high-caste sammelans too. Their leaders
> emphasize on using sacred thread (jaanve), though
> probably 90% audience do not wear it. They forced
> a Professor to apologize when the Professor spoke
> that the thread has lost relevance, is out-of-date.
>
> Comment 11
> Why exodus > Marathi to English medium schools?
> The real reason (not openly stated) is many parents
> of high caste students dont want mixing with others.
> Convent schools (no Govt aid) expensive for others.
> Also, English language fluency essential for career.
>
> Comment 12
> Education in mothertongue is good, but what about
> Nation-Building ? America is a melting pot, forcing
> non-English-speaking immigrants to study English,
> all work in English (mothertongue in homes, clubs).
> English language worked as their powerful cement.
> .............................................................................
> I have apologized to Mr. Aroon Tikekar. To amend error,
> I circulate (BCC) apology & previous mails to all, whom
> I had sent my mail subject "Savarkar, Hindutva". I have
> omitted Tikekar's email-id, to keep his privacy. -- MNG
>
> --- On Sun, 7/3/10, Madhukar N. Gogate
> <mngogate1932 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Madhukar N. Gogate mngogate1932 at yahoo.com
> Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 1:25 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Mr Tikekar,.
>
> I mentioned you, since your statement was revealing to
> me. I felt that due credit should be given to you in mail.
> I recall that you said Hindu terrorists outnumber Muslim
> terrorists in India. That is what I meant by Statistics.
>
> I dont remember, venue, year.  I recall Bhai Vaidya was
> chairman. The talk may be at at SM Joshi hall Pune. To
> check matters I phoned Mr Vaidya. He said he does not
> remember now. He mentioned he (Bhai Vaidya), Kumar
> Ketkar openly refer to large number of Hindu terrorists in
> India. Bhai also referred to the Bodo agitation in Assam.
>
> This is a lesson to me. I should have mentioned the point
> without quoting you. Since you have denied the quotation,
> and I cannot give evidence, I apologize. Please store this
> mail for any future reference, if needed. Sorry, once again.
>
> Regards,
>
> -- M. N. Gogate (www.mngogate.com) Pune 7 March 2010.
>
> .........................................................................................
> From: Aroon tikekar
> To: "Madhukar Gogate" <mngogate1932 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 12:23 PM
>
> Dear Mr. Gogate,
> Your statements regarding my "astonishing the Pune audience " for
> calling some  people as "Hindu terrorists" is intriguing to me, to say
> the least. As a person serious by nature I am not prone to making
> provocative speeches. Is it a case of mistaken identity?
>
> I am not even known for giving statistics in my public utterances. I
> firmly believe that statistics can be misleading. I restict to ideas
> and am happy with that. My  subjects too are limited and  I do not
> generally  cross my limits. I am careful about the words I employ. You
> know it.
> I shall stand corrected if you could inform me the place, the year and
> the topic of my speech as I do not remember to have said anything of
> that sort. Such statements ascribed to me by you appear to be
> uncharacteristic in my context and hence my doubt of mistaken
> identity. There are a couple of other editors who are prone to make
> such statements publically.
>
> Regards,
> Aroon Tikekar
> .......................................................................................
>
> ================================
> A discussion (March 2010) in a group about
> Savarkar, Hindutva etc. My points below >
> Any comments ? ----- (www.mngogate.com)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> A person (not here) asked my opinion on
> Hussein's picture of naked Saraswati Devi,
> or Toiletseat maker painting Hindu deity on
> reverse of cover. Agreed, they are insults to
> Hindu ethos. Campaign against these ok.
>
> These are outward symbols, but we must
> introspect on inner vices, and do reforms.
>
> No use patting our back that Vivekanand
> stunned Chicago gathering, starting with
> words "Brothers and Sisters". That time,
> Upper castes in India were treating lower
> castes like slaves, also as untouchables.
>
> Shejwalkar (Historian) put it bluntly that
> while Europeans were discussing whether
> India could be reached by travelling West
> as well... Hindus in India were discussing
> whether vertical or horizontal gandha lines
> on human forehead were more sacred !!
>
> Why criticize Muslims and Christians for
> their conversion campaigns, when Hindu
> religion is doing harakiri, of no conversion
> allowed, with rigid caste & subcaste walls.
> So none converts. What will be his caste ?
>
> Arun Tikekar stunned a Pune meeting years
> ago by statistics that killers of Rajiv Gandhi
> (and other conspirators), LTTE Prabhakaran
> etc, sandalwood robber Veerappan etc were
> Hindu Terrorists ! This explodes a pet theory
> that Terrorists are generally Muslims !! Mao
> terrorists today are not necessarily Muslims.
>
> Films dramatize to some extent. Aurangzeb
> always stood on a carpet about 15 ft by 15 ft,
> for security, and proclaiming his royalty. His
> advisers had to speak from a distance. But
> films show advisers telling him in his ears !!
>
> Truth is Truth. Savarkar swimmed (swam ?)
> how much distance before reaching coast ?
> Any research? Ignore film dramatization on
> Savarkar's escape to Marseilles, France.
>
> How many people follow Savarkar? He said
> Cow is an animal (not goddess). How many
> Hindus eat beef ? Savarkar suggested new
> vowel symbols (matra on अ) in place of (ए)
> etc. Not accepted !! (Kirloskar magazines
> tried for some time, later gave up). Subject
> for research. No use just praising Savarkar.
> ===============================
> END
> ======================================
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-- 
Anish Koshy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of ELT, Linguistics & Phonetics
School of Distance Education
The English & Foreign Languages University
Hyderabad - 500605, INDIA