Savarkar, Hindutva (closure), Kak's objection.

Sat Mar 13 00:16:10 UTC 2010

VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net
Editors:  Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York
          John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany
Details:  Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO VYAKARAN
Subscribe:Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say:
          SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME
          (Substitute your real name for first_name last_name)
Archives: http://listserv.syr.edu

Aadil Kak is right. Only comments 11, 12 in my mail, bear
on language, that too with respect to social factors. Kak or
anyone else, expecting academic issues, or notices, calls
of some language conferences, should not leave the forum
because of my mails. I thought socio-linguistics are part of
language studies. What language and script to be used on
coins or vehicle plates in a multilingual country ? Hundreds
of English words entering Indian languages. How to modify
them within Marathi, Hindi etc? How to write say Company,
equivalent to kampani or kampanee? Religions too step in.
Wrongly, Urdu in Arabic script is called Muslim language.
Riots take place on issue of languages. Once a while, if a
message comes, not strictly academic, it can be deleted.
My mails are usually bimonthly, showing Marathi samples
in Devanagari and Roman (based on symbols available on
current machines serving English. No diacritical marks). I
shall stop mails, if the Moderator directs. -- M. N. Gogate
PS. You may see E01, E04, E15 in (www.mngogate.com)  

--- On Sat, 13/3/10, aadil kak <aadilaminkak at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

From: aadil kak <aadilaminkak at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Savarkar, Hindutva (closure)
To: VYAKARAN at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
Date: Saturday, 13 March, 2010, 1:48 AM

VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME (Substitute your real name for first_name last_name) Archives: http://listserv.syr.edu 

Dear All, 
I think i am missing something here.. Is this forum a linguistics forum, an academic forum or a forum of something else? Do we have a moderator around? This is the second time we have received mails from Mr Gogate and they dont seem to be relevant. i guess there will be forums for this stuff somewhere else. Please let me know if this forum is a forum of politics, society-matters, etc. if so i would like to discontinue being a part of this forum. somebody please let me know.
Regards,
Aadil

--- On Fri, 3/12/10, Madhukar N. Gogate <mngogate1932 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

From: Madhukar N. Gogate <mngogate1932 at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Savarkar, Hindutva (closure)
To: VYAKARAN at LISTSERV.SYR.EDU
Date: Friday, March 12, 2010, 3:14 PM

VYAKARAN: South Asian Languages and Linguistics Net Editors: Tej K. Bhatia, Syracuse University, New York John Peterson, University of Osnabrueck, Germany Details: Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: INFO VYAKARAN Subscribe:Send email to listserv at listserv.syr.edu and say: SUBSCRIBE VYAKARAN FIRST_NAME LAST_NAME (Substitute your real name for first_name last_name) Archives: http://listserv.syr.edu 

=========================================
Subject >> Savarkar, Hindutva    Pune, 12 March 2010
I received many comments by email, phones etc. I give
briefly few. Think over. Thanks, I close the topic - MNG 

Comment 1
Important points have been raised. Food for thought.

Comment 2
Instances of Christian terrorism in north-east states. 
Monetary temptations too.

Comment 3
Social reform is slow process, spread on many years
and generations. Present day Hindus dont subscribe
to Untouchability. They are sorry their ancestors had
practised it. Muslim society very very slow to reforms.
Ofcourse many patriotic Muslims have enriched India.

Comment 4
In view of Tikekar's letter, MNG's apology is sporting.
Terrorists kill innocents, some of their religion too.

Comment 5
Educate Western media. They say a "Hindu" fanatic
killed Gandhi. They dont say that "Christian" fanatic
killed Lincoln, or Kennedy.

Comment 6
Basically Hindus tolerant, peace-loving. Jews, Parsis
of foreign origin settled in India comfortably.

Comment 7
In 2002, terrorism deaths were less in Kashmir, much
more in Gujarat, a record number in that decade.

Comment 8
"The Roots of Terrorism" year 2009, edited by Anand
Shankar (Shraddha Prakashan, Delhi) is eye-opener.
It contains articles, by many intellectuals. One says
that there are 32000 Madarsas in India having 74000
teachers and 18 lakh students, getting huge finances
from oil rich middle-east. They teach students to hate
non-Muslims, eventually become terrorists (Jihad etc).

Comment 9
Savarkar was great patriot. He was against casteism
and untouchability. His Devanagari script reforms are
irrelevant now, since computers tackle traditional lipi.

Comment 10
There are high-caste sammelans too. Their leaders
emphasize on using sacred thread (jaanve), though
probably 90% audience do not wear it. They forced
a Professor to apologize when the Professor spoke
that the thread has lost relevance, is out-of-date.

Comment 11
Why exodus > Marathi to English medium schools?
The real reason (not openly stated) is many parents
of high caste students dont want mixing with others.
Convent schools (no Govt aid) expensive for others.
Also, English language fluency essential for career.

Comment 12
Education in mothertongue is good, but what about
Nation-Building ? America is a melting pot, forcing
non-English-speaking immigrants to study English,
all work in English (mothertongue in homes, clubs).
English language worked as their powerful cement.
.............................................................................
I have apologized to Mr. Aroon Tikekar. To amend error,
I circulate (BCC) apology & previous mails to all, whom 
I had sent my mail subject "Savarkar, Hindutva". I have
omitted Tikekar's email-id, to keep his privacy. -- MNG

--- On Sun, 7/3/10, Madhukar N. Gogate 
<mngogate1932 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Madhukar N. Gogate mngogate1932 at yahoo.com
Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 1:25 PM

Dear Mr Tikekar,.

I mentioned you, since your statement was revealing to
me. I felt that due credit should be given to you in mail.
I recall that you said Hindu terrorists outnumber Muslim
terrorists in India. That is what I meant by Statistics.

I dont remember, venue, year.  I recall Bhai Vaidya was
chairman. The talk may be at at SM Joshi hall Pune. To
check matters I phoned Mr Vaidya. He said he does not
remember now. He mentioned he (Bhai Vaidya), Kumar 
Ketkar openly refer to large number of Hindu terrorists in
India. Bhai also referred to the Bodo agitation in Assam.

This is a lesson to me. I should have mentioned the point
without quoting you. Since you have denied the quotation,
and I cannot give evidence, I apologize. Please store this
mail for any future reference, if needed. Sorry, once again.

Regards,

-- M. N. Gogate (www.mngogate.com) Pune 7 March 2010.

.........................................................................................
From: Aroon tikekar 
To: "Madhukar Gogate" <mngogate1932 at yahoo.com>
Date: Sunday, 7 March, 2010, 12:23 PM

Dear Mr. Gogate,
Your statements regarding my "astonishing the Pune audience " for
calling some  people as "Hindu terrorists" is intriguing to me, to say
the least. As a person serious by nature I am not prone to making
provocative speeches. Is it a case of mistaken identity?

I am not even known for giving statistics in my public utterances. I
firmly believe that statistics can be misleading. I restict to ideas
and am happy with that. My  subjects too are limited and  I do not
generally  cross my limits. I am careful about the words I employ. You
know it.
I shall stand corrected if you could inform me the place, the year and
the topic of my speech as I do not remember to have said anything of
that sort. Such statements ascribed to me by you appear to be
uncharacteristic in my context and hence my doubt of mistaken
identity. There are a couple of other editors who are prone to make
such statements publically.

Regards,
Aroon Tikekar
.......................................................................................

================================
A discussion (March 2010) in a group about
Savarkar, Hindutva etc. My points below >
Any comments ? ----- (www.mngogate.com) 
---------------------------------------------------------------
A person (not here) asked my opinion on 
Hussein's picture of naked Saraswati Devi,
or Toiletseat maker painting Hindu deity on 
reverse of cover. Agreed, they are insults to
Hindu ethos. Campaign against these ok.

These are outward symbols, but we must
introspect on inner vices, and do reforms.

No use patting our back that Vivekanand
stunned Chicago gathering, starting with
words "Brothers and Sisters". That time,
Upper castes in India were treating lower
castes like slaves, also as untouchables. 

Shejwalkar (Historian) put it bluntly that
while Europeans were discussing whether
India could be reached by travelling West
as well... Hindus in India were discussing
whether vertical or horizontal gandha lines
on human forehead were more sacred !!

Why criticize Muslims and Christians for
their conversion campaigns, when Hindu
religion is doing harakiri, of no conversion
allowed, with rigid caste & subcaste walls.
So none converts. What will be his caste ?

Arun Tikekar stunned a Pune meeting years
ago by statistics that killers of Rajiv Gandhi
(and other conspirators), LTTE Prabhakaran
etc, sandalwood robber Veerappan etc were 
Hindu Terrorists ! This explodes a pet theory
that Terrorists are generally Muslims !! Mao
terrorists today are not necessarily Muslims.

Films dramatize to some extent. Aurangzeb
always stood on a carpet about 15 ft by 15 ft,
for security, and proclaiming his royalty. His
advisers had to speak from a distance. But
films show advisers telling him in his ears !!

Truth is Truth. Savarkar swimmed (swam ?)
how much distance before reaching coast ?
Any research? Ignore film dramatization on
Savarkar's escape to Marseilles, France.

How many people follow Savarkar? He said
Cow is an animal (not goddess). How many
Hindus eat beef ? Savarkar suggested new
vowel symbols (matra on अ) in place of (ए) 
etc. Not accepted !! (Kirloskar magazines
tried for some time, later gave up). Subject
for research. No use just praising Savarkar.
===============================
END
======================================

      Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW! http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/vyakaran/attachments/20100312/fea98a48/attachment.htm>