[gothic-l] The old Border between Norway and Sweden and Ostrogoths

[Bertil Haggman]

Esteemed Keth and Others,

Well, the Lehmann interpretation certainly sounds
unusual and he seems not to offer any argument
in support of his interpretation. The explanation
of Professor Andersson seems more based on
reason taking into account the fact that the
Gautoi lived so to say from coast to coast.
Nordin seems also to favour the interpretation
Ostrogothae = Oestgoetar.

It is also of interest that Jordanes mentioed the Finni
in the same sentence (although the Finni of _Getica_
might very well have been the Sami). Also I think
this sudden mention of the Finni ought to make for
a more careful interpretation of such elements as
the sequence of the names have a meaning. After all
Jordanes was an Early Medieval monk many centuries
removed from for instance Cicero. 

Am also wondering
if you by placing the Ostrgothae in Bohuslän in some
way is arguing for a Gothic original home on the
coast south of Oslo. This would be a new, interesting
interpretation. Any other archaelogical, linguistic,
historical sources for such an interpretation? Any
Norwegian scholars of the same opinion as you?
Am just asking because it is always interesting with
new theories. Also I believe it would have been
reasonable to mention the Gautigoth with the
Ostrogothae but instead you have the order

Gautigoth
Mixi
Evagre
Otingis
Ostrogothae

then two peoples which
generally are believed to
have lived in present day
Norway, and then suddenly
Finni to be followed by Vinoviloth,
Dani, Eruli and the finally
a new bunch of names of peoples.
I have a problem with finding a system
in that order.

Could you explain why the Finnis should
live close to Scania. Don't really understand
that point?

Don't know off hand when the vikings arrived in
Ireland, but do you suggest that arrival
was before the Danish vikings raided the
eastern coast of England? Are you suggesting
that the name viking has a Norwegian origin?
There a number of bays in Denmark.

The Danes, in the face of the sudden Swedish attack,
put up a great resistance (with also guerrillas) and
did successfully defend Copenhagen against the
besieging Swedes. If the Danish noblemen had balls
(I mean in the sence of dancing) that was balanced for
instance by the brave students of Copenhagen University
who volunteered to man the walls of the capital Danish
city to fight off the Swedish troops, to a great extent
mercenaries (even a unit of Tartars, presumably Crimean,
depending on the good Swedish-Crimean Tartar relations).

Gothically

Bertil

Ostro- = of disputed etymology. It probably doesn't mean East.

Assuming, therefore the general applicability of the above
arguments, it follows that when we read (in Jordanes description
of Scandinavia) that a nation called "Ostrogothi" lived there,
then we cannot assume a relationship between name (Ostro-)
and geographical location (East). Thus it is perfectly
possible that the Scandinavian "Ostrogothae" of the 6th
century or earlier (before 551, the date when Jordanes' Getica
was finished) did not live "East" in any geographical sense.
The possibility of a non-Eastern location is further substantiated
by the fact that Jordanes' enumeration of Scandinavian nations
follows a system of a sequential order, whose nature is geograpic.
Thus, whenever he mentions several nations in the same sentence,
we often find confirmed, by comparing with later sources, that
Jordanes' sequential order of enumeration reflects real geographic
locations in their proper sequential order; which is, by the
way, entirely within the bounds of reason, nay, even most 
probable, when we realize that it was an important part of 
the Roman educational system, to place much emphasis on how
knowledge and summaries of such had to be memorized and
mentioned in certain almost formulaic sequences, whose purpose
it was to facilitate the ready mental availability of such
knowledge. See for example the textbook that Cicero wrote on
rhetoric, where such systems of memorisation are thoroughly
explained.

Thus when Jordanes, Getica § 23, mentions in a single sentence
that (cf. Nordin) "Utanför dessa bor Ostrogothae, Raumaricii, Aeragna-
ricii och de blida Finni, som är mer saktmodiga än alla andra
innbyggare i Scandza." then that certainly is a good indication
of the geographic proximity of these people. When Nordin
further points out that "Aeragnaricii" most likely is a corruption
of "ac Ragnaricii" (= och innvånarane i Ranriki (i Bohuslän)),
then it is indeed also easy to identify "Raumariki" with today's
Romerike, which is located just North of Oslo. Thus, by the
application of these principles, one must of necessity place
Jordanes' "Ostrogothae" somewhere in the proximity of the
Oslo-Bohuslän area, which is admittedly a large area (distance
Oslo - Gautelfr mouth = ca. 200 km.), but compared to the
total size of all of Scandinavia, nevertheless limits the
geographic area where Jordanes' Ostrogotha may have lived.

If we further pay attention to his sequential order:
Ostrogothae - Raumaricii - Ragnaricii - Finni, then
we obtain a location closer to Romerike than to Götaland.
But such reasoning then also places the "Finni" (=Saami)
somwhere near Skåne, which is of course possible, but
somwhat less likely. (because one generally assumes that
the Saami live North of a certain debatable line in 
Scandinavia).
 
The Irish annals called the Vikings something
like "Hruothi" which indicates Old Norse "Hordar".
(=Hardanger area), which is also the most likely,
since Norway is much closer to Scotland and hence
Ireland, than Denmark is.

I have also read in other places that the first 
Vikings were from Hordaland. (meaning that Viken
is out - although Viken may also have been Danish
at that time. PLease also take a look at Beowulf and see how
many different kinds of "Danes" he enumerates.)

I read that the Danish nobles preferred masquarade balls
at the Danish castles, even while the war was raging.

(though the Danes might protest this. I don't know.
anybody want to break a lance for the Danish nobles
of the baroque period?)

(on the condition that we remain friends! )




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