[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Procop.-Cameron-DNA R.-Barði-Einar P.

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> 
> >                       
> > And we should not take this "mate with donkeys stuff" too 
seriously. 
> > Everybody knows that people have been having sex with animals in 
all 
> > cultures and in all time periods.I know it,you know it and 
Procopius 
> > knew it.
> 
> 
> So what then should we take 'seriously'? How can we decide what to 
> take seriously and what not? Just because we don't like one bit of 
> information we can not simply dismiss it as irrelevant for the rest 
of 
>  his writing. We cannot simply say Procopius' information about 
some 
> Herulic customs (as gruesome as they may be ) are absolutely 
accurate, 
> while at the same time dismiss another remark as 'not so serious', 
> this would be extremely bad scholarship. But I admitt it is done 
all 
> the time.
    
    Einar; Hæ Dirk.

   No you misunderstand me here.  I was not saying that Procopius was 
lying. I was just saying that this passage does not matter for 
anything. It can not be used to prove anything.
> 
>
> > And maybe he did not dislike them at all!! He just pretended to 
to 
> > so,because he was expected to dislike them.And express that in 
his 
> > writings. If he would not have done so,then people would have 
said; 
> > You seem to like the barbarians!                     
> > Well I am just speculating. My point; It is very hard to say what 
> was 
> > really going on in Procopius mind.
> 
> 
> Exactly true, and this relates also to your speculations about the 
> motivations about the Thule-journey.                               

      Einar, I agree. And the same about yours and Goffart´s 
speculations. Neither of you have any idea what was going on in 
Procopiu´s mind.


> >             Einar; I just wonder if those historians were writing 
> > against their best knowledge? They were maybe just writing what 
the 
> > Roman elite wanted and expected to hear? And I am not sure they 
> > respected the Roman elite anymore than the barbarians!!!
>
> Strange, after dismissing Goffart completely, now you are 
pretending 
> to know what somebody wanted to hear in the 6th century.


   Einar; This must be your imagination. I was not pretending to know 
anything. Read what I said again(above).
> > 
> 
> >        Einar; I think that such writings just show us that 
Procopius 
> > was a rather rough person. A little bit special and maybe his 
> > language use(and manners) were influenced beeing in such a 
intensive 
> > contact with the barbarians.? His manners were maybe no better 
than 
> > the manners of the Heruli.!
> > It is not really possible to judge about his reliability from 
that.
> 
> 
> 
> If it is not possible to judge his credibility from that than it 
will 
> never be possible to judge his credibilty at all. Goffart stated 
that 
> Procopius tells us more about perceptions, prejustices and 
polictial 
> discourse in 6th century Constantinopel, than about real hard 
evidence 
> for tribal history. I think that is the best view to look at it. 

   Einar; That is one angle to look at it from. And not the only one. 

If Goffart was a painter,painting a mountain. He would find a nice 
place to sit down and paint.                                          
Two other persons get the same idea.They want to paint that mountain 
too. 
They choose another place to sit on and paint the mountain,another 
angle.                                                                
Maybe Goffart is sitting in the south from the mountain,one of the 
others sitting in the eastern direction from the mountain and the 
other one sits in front of the mountain in the west direction.        
Then they paint the mountain.                                         

On the way back they meet each other and take a look at each others 
pantings.                                                            
Well of course the pictures would be very different because they were 
looking at the mountain from different directions/angles. The same 
mountain from different directions. Different angles.

But then Goffart would start claiming that "his angle" to look at the 
mountain was the right one. His painting shows the "real" 
mountain,not the paintings of others.                 

Same with Procopius. Goffart sees him and his writings from a special 
location/angle and claims his view/angle is the only right 
one.            
That is one of his major mistakes(apart from the smaller ones).

>  
> > I seriously think that Swedish scholars do harbor some predjudice 
> > against the Goths and maybe therefore the Heruli!  
> 
> 
> If you read J Svennung's famous article on Swedish Gothicism, you 
will 
> find that the opposite is the case.
   
    Einar; I did one error here(above). In front of Swedish,I should 
have had the word; many.                                              
 I saw this mistake after I had sent the letter,but found it such a 
minor mistake,I did not bother to come with a correction.
> 
> 
>  
> > Well, I see the clear signs that some Icelandic scholars do 
harbor a 
> > predjudice agains the Celts. That is they do not like the idea 
that 
> > maybe 40-50% of the Icelandic gene pool can be traced to them. 
They 
> > even call them "slaves that knew nothing and nothing could be 
> learned 
> > from" Get the idea?
> > Some kind of nationalism standing in the way for progress?
> 
> 
> 
> That is would be very worring indeed. I just hear a speech at the 
BM, 
> were one historian pointed to the many things that the Vikings in 
> Icleand learned from the Celts (including such basic skills like 
> pottery making).

   Einar; That is interesting. What is BM.? And what is the 
nationality of that historian?
> 
> > 
> > As far as I remember then the gene mix in Icelanders(beeing 
traced 
> > back at least about 1000 years) is more than can be accounted for 
> > with a simple gene mix between British Isles and Scandinavian 
> > populations. I think that was stated clearly. 
> 
> 
> 
> I completely fail to see how this supports the argument for Heruls 
in 
> Iceland. Just because 'continental genes' are stronger than 
expected 
> in Iceland does not mean that this contribution came from the 
Heruls. 

  Einar; Well, even if you completely fail to see it then these 
conclusions do support that hypothesis.

> A recent study on Viking gene contribution to Britain showed that 
> there is absolutely no genetic difference between Danish Vikings 
and 
> North German Saxons, Frisians, Angles and others. 

   Einar; I do not believe this statement of yours(absolutely no 
genetic difference). You must have misunderstood something. Even in 
Iceland there are DNA differences between people in different parts 
of the country. Small differences,but they do exist. 

Even "primitive" reaserch like  blood grouping reaserch(A-B-AB-O) 
shows differences between different parts of the country. O-group 
beeing the most prevalent in Western Iceland(And there were the 
strongholds of Celtic Christianity from the beginning of settlement). 
The prevalence of the O-group is strongest there and in Ireland of 
all countries in Northern Europe.

And as far as I remember then some gene mix from countries like 
Austria were detected(and traced back in time when that gene mix had 
happened.)And gene mix with other areas that are more south than the 
above mentioned areas you mention.                                   
I do not think that the Eastern European countries were included in 
the study. Unfortunately not.                                         
To my knowledge then Hungary is the next country to the east of 
Austria.


Bless, Bless, Einar.
> 



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