[gothic-l] Re: Yiddish is based on Ostrogothic

[l_labkovsky at HOTMAIL.COM]

--- In gothic-l at y..., czobor at c... wrote:
> Dear Mr. Labkovsky,
> 
> I tried to send a replay today in the morning, but it failed 
because 
> the Yahoo server was down. So I try to recompose it again.
> 
> Ostrogothic and Visigothic are not different languages, but 
dialects 
> (with slight differences, if any) of the same Gothic language.
> My arguments are:
> 
> 1. Wulfila's Gothic Bible (written in Visigothic) was easily 
> understood by the Ostrogoths and also by other East-Germanic 
peoples 
> who adopted the Arianism (Vandals, Burgundians). The failure of the 
> Franks to be converted to Arianism is explained, among other 
reasons, 
> also by the fact that, Franconian being a West-Germanic language 
> considerably different from Gothic, the Franks had difficulties in 
> understanding the language of the Gothic Bible.
> 
> 2. The language of the Gothic signatures on deeds of 6th century's 
> Italy is obviously Ostrogothic, Italy being under the rule of the 
> Ostrogoths at that time. Just look on them:
> 
> The Gothic signatures on the deed of Naples:
> 
> 1. Ik Ufitahari papa ufm<el>ida handau meinai jah andnemum
>    skilliggans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon miþ diakuna Alamoda
>    unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibaim unsaraim andnemum skilliggans .rk.
>    wairþ þize saiwe.
> 
> 2. Ik Sunjaifriþas diakon handau meinai ufmelida jah andnemum
>    skilliggans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon jah miþ diakona 
Alamoda
>    unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibaim unsaraim andnemum skilliggans .rk.
>    wairþ þize saiwe.
> 
> 3. Ik Merila bokareis handau meinai ufmelida jah andnemum
>    skilliggans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon jah miþ diakuna 
Alamoda
>    unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibim unsaraim andnemum skilliggans .r. k.
>    wairþ þize saiwe.
> 
> 4. Ik Wiljariþ bokareis handau meinai ufmelida jah andnemum
>    skilligngans .j. jah faurþis þairh kawtsjon jah miþ diakona 
Alamoda
>    unsaramma jah miþ gahlaibaim unsaraim andnemum skilig<g>ans .r. 
k.
>    wairþ <þ>ize saiwe.
> 
> The Gothic signature on the deed of Arezzo:
> 
> Ik Gudilub 'dkn' þo frabauhtaboka fram mis gawaurhta þus 'dkn'
> Alamoda fidwor unkjane hugsis Kaballarja jah skilliggans .rlg.
> andnam jah ufmelida.
> 
> They do not look like Yiddish at all, isn't it? In fact, their 
> language is virtually identical to the language of the Gothic 
Bible, 
> proving the fact that 4th century's Visigothic and 6th century's 
> Ostrogothic are the same language, despite the two centuries 
between 
> them.
> You are stating that "The Gothic language according to the 
> Encyclopedia Britannica is actually two different languages: the 
> Ostrogothic and the Visigothic, similar to the Mandarin and 
Cantonese 
> branches of the Chinese language." Which edition of the 
Encyclopaedia 
> Britannica did you use? In Encyclopaedia Britannica 2001 Deluxe 
> Edition on CD-ROM is written:
> "Gothic occurred in two dialects: Ostrogothic (in eastern Europe 
and 
> later in Italy) and Visigothic (in east central Europe and later in 
> Gaul and Spain), grouped according to tribes."
> So dialects, not different languages!!!
> Regarding Busbecq's list of Crimean Gothic words, it looks like a 
> contamination between Gothic and German (and Dutch) elements, fact 
> explainable in several ways (settlement of Germans in Crimea, like 
the 
> Saxons in Transylvania in 12th century, the influence of the 
language 
> of Busbecq's informers, the influence of the language of Busbecq 
> himself, the influence of the language of the editor of the list, 
> etc.). There are on that list words that are clearly of Gothic 
origin 
> (mine "moon", mycha "sword", ada "egg", tua "two", tria "three", 
fyder 
> "four", schlipen "to sleep", menus [*mems] "meat", tzo 
[*tho] "thou", 
> etc.) mixed with words that look rather High German (geen "go", tag 
> "day", plut "blood", etc.), some Iranic words (Sarmatian?, rather 
> Alanic; e.g. sada "hundred", hazer "thousand"), Turkic 
(telih "fool") 
> as well as some words of dubious origin. A "weird language" indeed, 
> isn't it? rather than the very regular language of the Gothic Bible!
> 
> These are my arguments. What are yours (excepting the "Haha")?
> 
> Francisc
> My arguments are based on the 15th edition of E.Britannica, 
Micropedia, Gothic language. It doesn't mention these Naples 
signatures, it only mentions the Bible translation. So you must be 
more informed than the Encyclopedia, may be you should publish your 
own Gothic Encyclopedia. I think there is lots of misinformation 
going on in this newsgroup for political reasons.
> --- In gothic-l at y..., l_labkovsky at h... wrote:
> >  Now I know the reason for the confusion regarding the Gothic 
> origins 
> > of Yiddish. The Gothic language according to the Encyclopedia 
> > Britannica is actually two different languages: the Ostrogothic 
and 
> > the Visigothic, similar to the Mandarin and Cantonese branches of 
> the 
> > Chinese language. Mandarin speakers can't even understand the 
> > Cantonese speakers. Back to Gothic, all existing Gothic texts 
> > according to Britannica are of the Visigothic origin. And let me 
> tell 
> > you, this was one weird language, totally different from the 
> > mainstream German. But the Ostrogothic language was quite similar 
to 
> > the regular German and also Yiddish. If you read "The Thirteenth 
> > Tribe" by A.Koestler he mentions an Israeli professor A.Poliak 
who 
> > compared Ostrogothic words used by Crimean Goths and found them 
> > similar to Yiddish words. You wouldn't accuse Poliak, a Jew, of 
> > having nefarious intentions towards Jews, would you? And I don't 
> want 
> > to discuss u and i and a because you can go in circles all day 
long. 
> > Look at the big picture. In order for Yiddish to come from Middle 
> > High German you first have to prove that German Jews arrived in 
> > Eastern Europe in any significant numbers and no such proof 
exists. 
> > Ostrogoths and Sarmatians however already lived in Ukraine. Haha!


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