[gothic-l] Re: Trailing the Eruli in the North

[Tore Gannholm]

>--- In gothic-l at y..., andreas.schwarcz at u... wrote:
>>  Dear Dirk,
>>  I agree that Cassiodorus´s description of Scandza is a learned
>>  compilation, but I follow Wolfram's suggestion that the written
>>  sources were enhanced by the oral testimony of Roduulf.
>
>
>
>Dear Andreas,
>
>this will probably never be decided, but I prefer the argument as it
>is set out by J. Svennung and R. Hachmann. Given the crude and
>rudimentary nature of the knowledge of Scandza as it is presented in
>the Getica, I see no reason to assume a contemporary or near
>contemporary eye-witness report, especially if Svennung's name-
>emendations are correct.
>
>cheers,
Dirk


Dirk,

There are two places Thule and Scandzam. I think Jordanes is mixing them up.

Prokopius clearly talks about the tribes in Thule. This makes sense.

It is to Thule that the Eruli according to Procopius returned and he 
counts the tribes in Thule. He does not mention Scanzam as he only 
deals with the Erulis and their new neighbours.

Scandzam is the island in the Baltic.

Jordanes says: "And at the farthest bound of its western expanse it 
has another island named Thule, of which the Mantuan bard makes 
mention:



"And Farthest Thule shall serve thee."

The same mighty sea has also in its arctic region, that is in the 
north, a great island named Scandza, from which my tale (by God's 
grace) shall take its beginning."

  " III (16) Let us now return to the site of the island of Scandza, 
which we left above. Claudius Ptolemaeus, an excellent describer of 
the world, has made mention of it in the second book of his work, 
saying: "There is a great island situated in the surge of the 
northern Ocean, Scandza by name, in the shape of a juniper leaf with 
bulging sides that taper down to a point at a long end." " Pomponius 
Mela also makes mention of it as situated in the Codan Gulf of the 
sea, with Ocean lapping its shores. (17) This island lies in front of 
the river Vistula, which rises in the Sarmatian mountains and flows 
through its triple mouth into the northern Ocean in sight of Scandza, 
separating Germany and Scythia."

At good weather you can see Gotland from Danziger Bucht.

As Jordanes talks about the Goths that he thinks come from Scandzam 
but also knows about Thule and the Eruli he has some problem to 
separate them.

It has by earlier Swedish historians been taken as an axiom that 
Gotland did not exist. You can see it on how they describe the 
Geography.

If one includes the archaeological finds in this analysis the above 
arguments make very good reason.

Just look at the map starting from the mouth of the Vistula.

Beginning of the 13th century an Englishman namned Barholomaeus 
Anglicus wrote an encyklopedi: "De proprietatibus rerum".  If you 
look at the word "Gothia" it says  "Huic regioni adiacet insula 
quedam nomine gothlandia, gothorum terra dicta que a gothis fuit 
antiquitus habitata."


Tore














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