[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Vandals

Wed Aug 25 08:03:00 UTC 2004

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Hi Llama nom!

Having nothing to add to the matter in question, I'd like to discuss some
your postulates regarding Greek and Gothic influences on Slavonic.

Pronunciation of the Greek Beta as _v_ in Russian loanwords from Greek
is usual but not absolutely obligatory. Note that Old Russian borrowed
most of Greek words in a written form (from ecclesiastic literature,
hence not earlier than in the XI c.). No matter, which way the real Middle
(Byzantine) Greeks pronounced the Beta in the XI c., Russian monks never
heard Greek enunciation and translated solely manuscripts. From this standpoint,
the Beta might be translated (black and white) as _b_ or _v_ depending on
preferences of a particular translator. Predominance of the variant _v_
is explained only by the fact that many Greek texts, especially within the initial
period after the Christening, came to Russia through Bulgaria already translated
into Old Bulgarian (Old Slavonic) where the Bulgarians, well acquainted
with the Greek culture and language, used to put the Slavonic V-equivalent
instead of the Beta. Nevertheless, there are a few modern Russian loanwords
from Greek with _b_ in place of the Greek Beta. Besides the mentioned
<korabl'> I'd point out the word <bibliya> 'the Bible' that preserved
both _b_ of the Greek original. Maybe we have here an example of
a "holding action" of the _l_ after the Beta?

Now we touch "the presumed fricative Gothic b/f > b in loanwords to Slavonic".
You know, the stem of the Gothic word <hlaifs> was <hlaib> (cf. G. <hlaibis>),
but "quality" of this _b_ is under question. I do not know how exact is reflection
of the sound in a conventional writing _b_. At least the modern Russians
pronounce <hlep> while the modern Finns pronounce <laipa>, both with _p_
in place of the Gothic _b/f_.

Regards

Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: llama_nom [mailto:penterakt at fsmail.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 1:32 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Goths and Vandals

Hi Jim,

There are some early Greek loanwords in Slavonic, for example Russian
KORABL' < Gk. karabi(on), a sort of boat.  According to Entwhistle &
Morison's "Russian & the Slavonic Languages" this must have been
borrowed before the Greek Beta became a fricative, because later
borrowings have _v_.  Do you know when that happened?  Wright, and
Streitberg I think, both say that it was before the time of the
Gothic Bible, but I don't know how long before.  (The same word was
borrowed later into Norse, giving Old Icelandic KARFI).  On the other
hand, the presumed fricative Gothic b/f > b in loanwords to Slavonic
(e.g. chl'eb < hlaifs...

Maybe a bilabial fricative sounded closer to B than to V in Slavonic
ears.  I've always assumed that Greek B went through a bilabial stage
on its way to the modern V sound, but I don't know about the timing
of any of this.

Another Greek loan to Slavonic, OB. kopije 'spear' < Gk.
koopion 'haft', is said to have been transmitted via the Germans (?
Goths).

Given such words, maybe we shouldn't read too much into Priscus's
comment beyond the immediate situation at Attila's court, or maybe it
didn't apply at an earlier time.  If it was true though, the
following article might explain it:

http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art198e.pdf

Here Frederik Kortlandt argues that the Goths migrated not directly
from the Vistula to the Ukraine, but along a more westerly route,
along the Danube.  This, he says, explains certain Latin & Celtic
influences on Gothic.  I'm a bit wary of some of his conclusions
though.  He seems very definite about certain things, and doesn't
mention alternate explanations, e.g.:

"The words Kreks `Greek' and dat. pl. marikreitum `pearls' also
betray the influence of an Upper German dialect without voiced
obstruents (cf. Kortlandt 1988: 9)."

Usually Got. Kreks, OE. crecas, etc. are explained as an earlier
borrowing, with K for G due to the lack of voiced stops in Germanic.
Kortlandt's idea assumes a very early date for this distinctively
Upper German consonant shift, pre 350!  Also, that the Germanic
tribes had no established name for Greeks before this time.

"Gothic phonology resembles that of Latin and Romance more than that
of the other Germanic languages" - is a curious statement.  I wonder
what exactly he has in mind here.  The other Germanic languages are
only recorded extensively in much later forms.  In the mid fourth
century the runic evidence suggests that they were much closer to
Gothic, with a simpler set of phonemes.

That said, I don't know enough to comment on the overall hypothesis.
Maybe there is something in it.

"It seems to me that gen. pl. skaurpjono `scorpions' almost suffices
to show that the Goths entered the Balkans from the west, not from
the north."

Almost suffices, I don't know, but Gk. skorpios (accute accent on i)
versus Lat. scorpio, does suggest that the Goths took the word from
Latin rather than Greek.  Another reason for the Latin influence
might be the prevelance of Latin in the military, even in the East.
I'm not sure of dates or sources for this, but I've read that Latin
persisted longest in the Eastern Empire as the official language of
the army.

Llama Nom

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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