Toledo

[macmaster at RISEUP.NET]

Why couldn't they be borrowed in the way that modern English has borrowed
words with sounds not found in it?  ie., 'qat', 'hannukah', 'challah',
'sheikh', etc ...

ualarauans wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, macmaster at ... wrote:
>
>>
>> A lot would depend on the nature of the settlement;
>> if the Visigoths settled in communities and farmed themselves, the
>> language is more likely to have survived than if they were widely
>> scattered as 'lords of the manor' surrounded by romance speaking
> servants,
>> neighbors, etc. The 'barbarian' groups that kept their language after
>> entering the
> former
>> empire were largely those who were of the first sort (the Anglo-
> Saxons,
>
>> Slavs, Alemanni) while those of the second sort (Bulgars, Franks,
>> Burgundians, Normans) have long since disappeared and would seem
>>
> to have
>> been absorbed quickly.
>
> I heard the Franks did colonize what is now Northeast France and
> Belgium in the way you call the first sort – monolingual communities
> of farmers, but nevertheless they lost their language in a few generations.
> I guess if Britain were a part of the continent or if
> there were a tunnel under the channel built by Caesar or William the
> Conqueror we'd probably know now of "British Romance" or "North
> French" spoken over there. Look how the Celtic languages were
> preserved in Britain while they totally disappeared on the continent.
>
> raul catalan ramos wrote:
>> I have "argued" about this point with my friends several
>>
> times.From my
>> point of view, according to the number of words inherited from east
>> germanic, it is very unlikely the employ of gothic by goths in
> Hispania,
>
>> becasuse most of germanic words in nowadays spanish is limited to
> only a
>> handful examples (as "guerra" (written "Werra"  in the ancient
> sources ,
>> meaning "war") or "bosque" meaning "forest", both of them nearby
> the same
>> as the italian words for war, "guerra", and   forest,"bosco"). On
> the
>> other hand, the lack of written sources in gothic can't be used to
> deny
>> the employ of gothic among goths in hispania, because the written
> sources
>> from this period are closely related to the highest elites of
> society,
>> whose focus was the roman (and then bizantine) culture and the
> employ of
>> Latin. I agree with the idea that
>> gothic vanished in a few generations, but I think that it must
> endured for
>> some time in rural areas far from the cities.
>
> Spanish guerra is almost surely a loan from Frankish werra via Old
> French. As are many other Germanic words in Ibero-Romance.
>
>
> Still, there are a few words which seem really Gothic and which
> could rather dispute Dirk's thesis that no Gothic was spoken over the
> Pyrennees. I mean words which preserve Visigothic diphthongs and
> which therefore could not enter Ibero-Romance from a Latin-based military
> pidgin because Vulgar Latin did not have these sounds. Ergo, they must
> have been borrowed directly from Gothic.
>
> Ualarauans
>
>
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