Hello

[llama_nom]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts at ...> wrote:
>
> Hails LN!
> 
> 
> > 'hails' is used twice as a greeting or salutation in the Gothic 
> Bible,
> > once with nominative, once with vocative - never with dative. Both
> > instances agree with the Greek original. Nominative is used in other
> > old Germanic languages, which lacked a distinct vocative form. There
> > is also a longer form in these other languages meaning 
> explicitly "be
> > well/healthy" (e.g. Old Norse 'vertu heill), which, had it existed 
> in
> > Gothic would have required the nominative: hailai/hailos/haila 
> sijaiþ
> > (jus) allai/allos/alla (masculine/feminine/neuter).
> > 
> 
> But is there any other attested way to greet?

The angel who comes to Mary greets her with the imperative verb
'fagino' "rejoice" or "be happy". This translates Greek CAIRE, as does
'hails' when the soldiers mock Jesus, saying 'hails, þiudan(s) Iudaie'
"hail, king of the Jews".

Busbecq's list of Crimean Gothic words and expressions includes
'knauen tag' "good day", which in Biblical Gothic would be 'godana
dag' - accusative because it's really short for something like "I wish
you a good day" or "have a good day".

> I think it is most logic to use vocative now when you say it. But 
> haven't most people here used dative?

True, but I think they're probably basing this idioms in their own
languages, including Modern English. The other old Germanic languages
use nominative, declining the adjective for gender and number. Here's
a good example from the Old Norse poem Sigrdrífumál: Heill dagr.
Heilir dags synir. Heil nótt ok nipt. [...] Heilir æsir. Heilar
ásynjur. Heil sjá in fjölnýta fold. "Hail, day. Hail, day's sons.
Hail, night and [her] daughter [...] Hail, gods. Hail, goddesses.
Hail, you bountiful earth." You could also translate this into Modern
English as "Hail to the gods [...] Hail to the bountiful earth" etc.

> > 'fram' is always used with the dative, as far as I know, except 
> where
> > a noun refering to someone's house is implied: gaggiþ sums manne 
> fram
> > þis fauramaþleis swnagogais "a man came from (the house) of the 
> ruler
> > of the synagogue" (L 8:49).
> > 
> 
> So if I say "I come from Sweden" or "I am going away from the house" 
> whould I use dative or genitive then?

Dative for both. The genitive is only used where you're talking about
a particular person's house and the word for "house" is left unspoken.
So 'fram' never really governs the genitive, it just happens to look
as if it does in that example because the word for "house" has been
left out.

laistidedun afar Iesua fram Galeilaia
"followed Jesus from Galilee" (dative)

qemun fram þamma swnagogafada
"they came from the ruler of the synagogue" (dative)

raus fram winda wagidata
"a reed blown by the wind" (dative)

fram þizai hveilai jainai
"from that time (forth)" (dative)

ni faraiþ us garda in gard
"don't go from house to house" (dative).

I couldn't find any examples of 'fram garda'. They just seemed to
prefer 'us garda'.

us garda Daweidis
"from the house of David"

But:

fram þis fauramaþleis swnagogais
"from [the house] of the ruler of the synagogue"
 
> > 'goleins' "greeting" is never attested in the plural. The singular
> > form occurs at the end of some of the Epistles of Saint Paul, e.g.
> > 'goleins meinai handau Pawlaus' "the salutation by the hand of me
> > Paul" (I Col 4:18), meaning his signature.  The verb from which it's
> > derived also occurs: golja izwis ik Tairtius "I, Tertius, greet you
> > (plural)" (R 16:22).
> > 
> > LN
> >
> 
> If the singular form goleins is attested and so also the verb goljan. 
> Then we probably can assume that goleins would be goleineis in 
> plural, right? Since other nouns ending in -eins and made from verbs 
> do end in -eineis in plural?

-einos. Abstract feminine nouns in -eins, -ons and -ains are declined
as i-stems, except that the -eins nouns have nominative and genitive
plural like o-stems: -einos, -eino. So the nominative plural of
'goleins' would be 'goleinos', but whether Gothic speakers used the
word for "greetings" as a greeting, or whether this would have sounded
bizarre to them, is hard to know.

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