A short gothic poem
faltin2001
d.faltin at HISPEED.CH
Thu Jul 25 12:03:28 UTC 2013
>
> In a message dated 08/07/2013 23:43:27 GMT Daylight Time,
> duke.co at ... writes:
>
> does someone haf a definitive words for nose and hair......i think hair
> is tagla , but back in those days all the goths had long hair and i assume
> they were talkin about putting their hair as a pony tail......not sure
>
Hi,
that is an interesting point. If "tagl" meant (hair-) tail it could be related to the dialectic German word "Zagel" meaing tail (of a horse or cow).
Cheers,
Dirk
> --- On Sun, 7/7/13, Edmund <edmundfairfax at ...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Edmund <edmundfairfax at ...>
> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: A short gothic poem
> To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, July 7, 2013, 4:30 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Gerry,
>
> I have done some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.
>
> 1) Earlier attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms with
> the etymological equivalents in modern German have been shown to be
> misguided and ultimately misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A study done by
> Anneliese Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender
> Formen: Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und Deutung.
> Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und
> Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the
>
> 'was-' und 'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck
> passivischer Bedeutung verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen sind
> Unterschiede in der syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht ueberzeugend
> nachzuweisen. (p. 108)
>
> In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference in
> meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the formation
> of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv kann
> griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the
> 'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite only a couple
> of her examples:
>
> 'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus 'galothoths warth' (C7,18) =
> perfect
> 'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect, versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) =
> aorist
>
> This means ultimately that Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a
> stative versus an active sense in the paraphrastic passive.
>
> 2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail, with 'haitada' ('is called'),
> seems to have caused some confusion because of my gloss. 'Haitan' means
> simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be called'. The gloss 'to be
> called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on calling him" as you worded
> it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated 'Barabbas or Jesus, whose
> name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have found some further
> examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:
>
> us thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15) 'whence
> every family in heaven and on earth is named'
>
> swethauh ei ufarassau izwis frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such that
> loving you more, will I be loved less'
>
> fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are held captive'
>
> As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact possible with inflected
> passives.
>
> The foregoing then means that the phrase "is buried" can be translated
> indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist fulhans'.
>
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > My objection was in fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the
> poem but rather to the form "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past
> participle and an inflected rather than paraphrastic present passive form; if an
> inflected present passive form is to be used, then it must be 'filhada' or a
> prefixed form of the same.
> >
> > As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive construction could also
> be used to form present passives, with a present or future reference.
> Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form 'ist fulhans' is
> naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the inflected pres.
> passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my doubts, but at this
> point, I will do more research and report my findings in due course.
> >
> > Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the past part. properly
> agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by ellipsis simply the past
> part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable choice in the context of the
> poem. The following example is very close in sense:
> >
> > ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau (Mat10,26) 'for nothing
> is hidden that may not be revealed'
> >
> > To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide)
> seemed apt given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the absolute
> loss God knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it
> was. The prefix 'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course, need not
> be used.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that "fulhan" rather than "filhada"
> was
> > > right:
> > >
> > > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament,
> and is
> > > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist". Example:
> > >
> > > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu
> > > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ wig þeinana faura þus.
> > >
> > > This is he of whom it is written,
> > >
> > > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
> > > who shall prepare thy way before thee."
> > >
> > > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke 2:23,
> 3:4,
> > > 4:4, 4:8.
> > >
> > > It is clear, then, that to the question "where is the word of the
> prophet"
> > > a possible answer would be
> > >
> > > gameliþ [ist] in malmin - [it is] written in the sand,
> > >
> > > Gothic, like English, using a past participle.
> > >
> > > And so, if the question is "where is our heritage", as in the poem we
> have
> > > been concerned with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely
> contain
> > > "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the original
> > > "fulhan" was right.
> > >
> > > Now let us consider Edmund's counterexample:
> > >
> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada
> > > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)
> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is
> called
> > > Christ?'
> > >
> > > Here, the present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because the
> sense
> > > was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other hand,
> "it
> > > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I think the
> > > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what has happened to
> our
> > > heritage: it has been buried once and for all, rather than that people
> keep
> > > burying it.
> > >
> > > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For
> > > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has "ton
> legomenon
> > > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" - using for "called" a
> present passive
> > > participle, legomenon. On the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates a
> Greek
> > > perfect, "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the Greek
> > > perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila
> chose to
> > > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our
> heritage has
> > > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another abiding state, and so I
> guess
> > > that Greek would use a perfect, and Wulfila would have represented
> this by
> > > "fulhan ist".
> > >
> > > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for burying
> (leave
> > > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand, the suggested
> "affilhan"
> > > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide something away.
> > >
> > > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean burial.
> > >
> > > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for bury
> > >
> > > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.
> > >
> > > Gerry T.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time,
> > > edmundfairfax@ writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > 1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'
> > >
> > > 2) There seems to be much confusion about the formation of the Gothic
> > > passive. A careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1,
> 2004), will
> > > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present
> indicative and
> > > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic construction is
> used
> > > consisting of a suitable preterite form of the auxiliary '
> wisan/wairthan'
> > > and the past participle of the main verb. I quote from the Braune:
> > >
> > > "Das Passiv ist nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und Optativ
> > > Praes. vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben durch
> das Part.
> > > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder 'wisan', z.B.
> > > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber 'daupiths was' 'wurde
> getauft'
> > > (Mk. 1,19)."
> > >
> > > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the infinitive, not
> the
> > > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether incorrect.
> > >
> > > It should also be noted that there is no perfect in Gothic. A passive
> can
> > > have both an active or stative sense. As an example of the stative
> sense,
> > > consider the following line from the Gothic Bible:
> > >
> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada
> > > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)
> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is
> called
> > > Christ?'
> > >
> > > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative passive
> of
> > > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active sense; the
> > > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose name is Christ'.
> Thus, it
> > > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is buried' must have only an active
> sense,
> > > and not a stative sense.
> > >
> > > 3) The Goths employed the convention of scriptio continua ('continuous
> > > writing'), that is, writing without spaces between words (e.g.
> > > "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words are
> normally separated
> > > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written together with the
> word they
> > > belong to without the use of hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to be
> > > written 'afgrundithai'.
> > >
> > > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the 'f' of the prefix and should be
> > > 'affilhada'.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:
> > > >
> > > > (i) I think "sijain" should be "sijai".
> > > >
> > > > (ii) I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried"
> was
> > > > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the sense
> that
> > > someone
> > > > is in the act or habit of burying it. Since the burial is complete
> you
> > > > want the past participle, which is passive in sense. In the modern
> > > Germanic
> > > > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an
> > > auxiliary, but
> > > > this construction I think was adopted from the Latin tongues, and
> does
> > > not
> > > > appear in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought out
> in
> > > > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.
> > > >
> > > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police have
> > > surrounded
> > > > the building).
> > > >
> > > > Gerry T.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time, nodead4@
> > > > writes:
> > > >
> > > > Understood!
> > > >
> > > > Therefore, the poem finally is of this form:
> > > >
> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? / Hvar ist arbi unsar?
> > > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai
> > > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis
> > > > Wulthag sijain fraweit.
> > > >
> > > > I was using "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose "arby"
> > > > instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the
> > > recording booklet!!
> > > >
> > > > Many thanx to all.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem Gothic language. I'm not a
> > > > linguist nor an expert, so there will be several mistakes. Some help
> is
> > > > requested to make it right. (This is part of a song in english, but
> I
> > > wanted to
> > > > include this speech in a middle section).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? (where is our heritage?)
> > > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of
> > > oblivion)
> > > > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of an
> > > era)
> > > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious revenge be)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanx in advance.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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