A short gothic poem

halsteis at PVV.NTNU.NO halsteis at PVV.NTNU.NO
Thu Jul 25 12:36:09 UTC 2013 

>
>>
>> In a message dated 08/07/2013 23:43:27 GMT Daylight Time,
>> duke.co at ... writes:
>>
>> does  someone  haf a definitive words for nose and hair......i think
>> hair
>> is  tagla , but back in those days all the goths had long hair and i
>> assume
>> they  were talkin about putting their hair as a pony tail......not sure
>>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> that is an interesting point. If "tagl" meant (hair-) tail it could be
> related to the dialectic German word "Zagel" meaing tail (of a horse or
> cow).
>
> Cheers,
> Dirk
>
In modern Norwegian, hestetagl (horse-tagl) means horse-hair, as in mane
and tail.

Halstein.



>
>
>
>
>
>> ---  On Sun, 7/7/13, Edmund <edmundfairfax at ...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From:  Edmund <edmundfairfax at ...>
>> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: A short  gothic poem
>> To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Sunday, July 7, 2013,  4:30 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Gerry,
>>
>> I have done  some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.
>>
>> 1) Earlier  attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms
>> with
>> the etymological  equivalents in modern German have been shown to be
>> misguided and ultimately  misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A
>> study done by
>> Anneliese  Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender
>> Formen:  Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und
>> Deutung.
>> Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und
>> Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the
>>
>> 'was-' und  'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck
>> passivischer Bedeutung  verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen
>> sind
>> Unterschiede in der  syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht
>> ueberzeugend
>> nachzuweisen. (p.  108)
>>
>> In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference  in
>> meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the
>> formation
>> of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv  kann
>> griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the
>> 'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite
>> only a  couple
>> of her examples:
>>
>> 'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus  'galothoths warth' (C7,18) =
>> perfect
>> 'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect,  versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) =
>> aorist
>>
>> This means ultimately that  Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a
>> stative versus an active sense in  the paraphrastic passive.
>>
>> 2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail,  with 'haitada' ('is
>> called'),
>> seems to have caused some confusion because of  my gloss. 'Haitan' means
>> simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be  called'. The gloss
>> 'to be
>> called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on  calling him" as you
>> worded
>> it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated  'Barabbas or Jesus,
>> whose
>> name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have  found some further
>> examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:
>>
>> us  thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15)
>> 'whence
>> every  family in heaven and on earth is named'
>>
>> swethauh ei ufarassau izwis  frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such
>> that
>> loving you more, will I be  loved less'
>>
>> fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are  held captive'
>>
>> As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact  possible with
>> inflected
>> passives.
>>
>> The foregoing then means that the  phrase "is buried" can be translated
>> indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist  fulhans'.
>>
>> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "Edmund"  <edmundfairfax@> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > My objection was in  fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the
>> poem but rather to the form  "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past
>> participle and an inflected rather  than paraphrastic present passive
>> form; if an
>> inflected present passive form  is to be used, then it must be 'filhada'
>> or a
>> prefixed form of the  same.
>> >
>> > As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive  construction could
>> also
>> be used to form present passives, with a present or  future reference.
>> Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form  'ist
>> fulhans' is
>> naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the  inflected
>> pres.
>> passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my  doubts, but
>> at this
>> point, I will do more research and report my findings in  due course.
>> >
>> > Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the  past part. properly
>> agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by  ellipsis simply the
>> past
>> part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable  choice in the context
>> of the
>> poem. The following example is very close in  sense:
>> >
>> > ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau  (Mat10,26) 'for
>> nothing
>> is hidden that may not be revealed'
>> >
>> >  To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide)
>> seemed apt  given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the
>> absolute
>> loss God  knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it
>> was. The prefix  'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course,
>> need not
>> be used.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that  "fulhan" rather than
>> "filhada"
>> was
>> > > right:
>> > >
>> >  > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament,
>> and  is
>> > > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist".  Example:
>> > >
>> > > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ  ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu
>> > > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ  wig þeinana faura þus.
>> > >
>> > > This is he of whom it is  written,
>> > >
>> > > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy  face,
>> > > who shall prepare thy way before thee."
>> > >
>> > > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke
>> 2:23,
>> 3:4,
>> > > 4:4, 4:8.
>> > >
>> > > It is clear,  then, that to the question "where is the word of the
>> prophet"
>> > > a  possible answer would be
>> > >
>> > > gameliþ [ist] in malmin -  [it is] written in the sand,
>> > >
>> > > Gothic, like English,  using a past participle.
>> > >
>> > > And so, if the question is  "where is our heritage", as in the poem
>> we
>> have
>> > > been concerned  with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely
>> contain
>> > >  "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the
>> original
>> >  > "fulhan" was right.
>> > >
>> > > Now let us consider  Edmund's counterexample:
>> > >
>> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau  izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada
>> > > Xristus?" (Mat.  27,17)
>> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus,  who is
>> called
>> > > Christ?'
>> > >
>> > > Here, the  present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because
>> the
>> sense
>> > >  was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other
>> hand,
>> "it
>> > > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I  think
>> the
>> > > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what  has happened
>> to
>> our
>> > > heritage: it has been buried once and for  all, rather than that
>> people
>> keep
>> > > burying it.
>> > >
>> > > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For
>> > > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has  "ton
>> legomenon
>> > > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" -  using for "called" a
>> present passive
>> > > participle, legomenon. On  the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates
>> a
>> Greek
>> > > perfect,  "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the
>> Greek
>> > >  perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila
>> chose to
>> > > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our
>> heritage has
>> > > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another  abiding state, and so
>> I
>> guess
>> > > that Greek would use a perfect,  and Wulfila would have represented
>> this by
>> > > "fulhan ist".
>> >  >
>> > > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for  burying
>> (leave
>> > > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand,  the suggested
>> "affilhan"
>> > > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide  something away.
>> > >
>> > > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean  burial.
>> > >
>> > > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for  bury
>> > >
>> > > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.
>> > >
>> > > Gerry T.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time,
>> > > edmundfairfax@ writes:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >  1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'
>> > >
>> > > 2) There seems to be  much confusion about the formation of the
>> Gothic
>> > > passive. A  careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1,
>> 2004), will
>> >  > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present
>> indicative  and
>> > > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic  construction
>> is
>> used
>> > > consisting of a suitable preterite form of  the auxiliary '
>> wisan/wairthan'
>> > > and the past participle of the  main verb. I quote from the Braune:
>> > >
>> > > "Das Passiv ist  nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und
>> Optativ
>> > > Praes.  vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben
>> durch
>> das Part.
>> > > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder  'wisan',
>> z.B.
>> > > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber  'daupiths was' 'wurde
>> getauft'
>> > > (Mk. 1,19)."
>> > >
>> > > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the  infinitive,
>> not
>> the
>> > > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether  incorrect.
>> > >
>> > > It should also be noted that there is no  perfect in Gothic. A
>> passive
>> can
>> > > have both an active or stative  sense. As an example of the stative
>> sense,
>> > > consider the  following line from the Gothic Bible:
>> > >
>> > > "hwana  wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada
>> > >  Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)
>> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you?  Barabbas or Jesus, who is
>> called
>> > > Christ?'
>> > >
>> >  > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative
>> passive
>> of
>> > > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active  sense;
>> the
>> > > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose  name is
>> Christ'.
>> Thus, it
>> > > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is  buried' must have only an
>> active
>> sense,
>> > > and not a stative  sense.
>> > >
>> > > 3) The Goths employed the convention of  scriptio continua
>> ('continuous
>> > > writing'), that is, writing  without spaces between words (e.g.
>> > >  "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words
>> are
>> normally  separated
>> > > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written  together with the
>> word they
>> > > belong to without the use of  hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to
>> be
>> > > written  'afgrundithai'.
>> > >
>> > > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the  'f' of the prefix and should be
>> > > 'affilhada'.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --- In  gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Grsartor@ wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >  Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:
>> > > >
>> > > > (i)  I think "sijain" should be "sijai".
>> > > >
>> > > > (ii)  I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried"
>> was
>> > >  > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the
>> sense
>> that
>> > > someone
>> > > > is in the act or habit of burying it.  Since the burial is
>> complete
>> you
>> > > > want the past participle,  which is passive in sense. In the
>> modern
>> > > Germanic
>> > >  > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an
>> >  > auxiliary, but
>> > > > this construction I think was adopted  from the Latin tongues, and
>> does
>> > > not
>> > > > appear  in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought
>> out
>> in
>> > >  > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.
>> > > >
>> > > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police  have
>> > > surrounded
>> > > > the building).
>> > >  >
>> > > > Gerry T.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> >  > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time,
>> nodead4@
>> > > > writes:
>> > > >
>> > > >  Understood!
>> > > >
>> > > > Therefore, the poem finally  is of this form:
>> > > >
>> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? /  Hvar ist arbi unsar?
>> > > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai
>> > > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis
>> > > >  Wulthag sijain fraweit.
>> > > >
>> > > > I was using  "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose
>> "arby"
>> > > >  instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the
>> > >  recording booklet!!
>> > > >
>> > > > Many thanx to all.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:
>> >  > > >
>> > > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem  Gothic language. I'm
>> not a
>> > > > linguist nor an expert, so there  will be several mistakes. Some
>> help
>> is
>> > > > requested to make it  right. (This is part of a song in english,
>> but
>> I
>> > > wanted to
>> > > > include this speech in a middle section).
>> > > >  >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Hvar ist othal unsar?  (where is our heritage?)
>> > > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis  af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of
>> > > oblivion)
>> > >  > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of
>> an
>> > > era)
>> > > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious  revenge be)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >  > Thanx in advance.
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > >  >
>> > > >
>> > > >
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