FW: first words

[Alison Crutchley]

Brian MacWhinney has encouraged me to post our recent exchange to the list... see below.
Best wishes Alison
 
............................................................................
Dr Alison Crutchley
Course Leader, English Language 
School of Music, Humanities and Media
University of Huddersfield
Queensgate
Huddersfield, UK. HD1 3DH
 
a.crutchley at hud.ac.uk
http://www.hud.ac.uk/mh/english/research/ac.htm
............................................................................

________________________________

From: Brian MacWhinney [mailto:macw at cmu.edu]
Sent: Wed 13/09/2006 9:58 PM
To: Alison Crutchley
Subject: Re: first words



Dear Alison,

OK.  This helps a lot.  Would you be willing to post your really 
helpful further commentary to info-childes?  Many thanks.  And please 
include a statement that you really meant four months and NOT four 
months after the beginning of language.

Personally, I am not convinced that children are not actually echoing 
words at this early age.  You know that quote from Hamlet.  Something 
like "there is more in heaven and earth Horatio than in all your 
scholarly readings."

--Brian

On Sep 13, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Alison Crutchley wrote:

> Dear Brian
>
> I think my use of the word 'word' was misleading. Before 6 months 
> of age our son produced word-like strings - which sounded to us 
> like 'elk', 'igloo' and 'bears' - but were clearly (to us at least) 
> not used in any context that would support their interpretation as 
> having actual reference or 'meaning' for him. We like a joke, so we 
> pretended that he was talking to us about igloos etc.
>
> However, imagine that we lived in North Dakota (e.g. http://
> www.wapiti.net/), and an elk strolled by just as Tilden shouted 
> 'Elk' (or indeed a bear as he - coincidentally - shouted something 
> that sounded like 'Bears'). We might well be tempted to interpret 
> this as 'real' word use, especially if he did it more that once 
> (which could still be coincidence, given the frequency with which 
> he produced these strings over a shortish period).
>
> Incidentally Tilden gave up producing these strings and started 
> babbling a few months later. He hasn't mentioned an elk since.
>
> Friends of mine visited with their son recently who seemed to me 
> clearly to be saying 'cherry' when given one. His mother insisted 
> that he wasn't. It all goes to show (for me, anyway) that the 
> science of establishing what exactly a first word is, and how we 
> can be sure it is that for the child as well as for us, is still 
> far from exact.
>
> With very best wishes Alison
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Brian MacWhinney [mailto:macw at cmu.edu]
> Sent: Wed 13/09/2006 9:29 PM
> To: Alison Crutchley
> Subject: Re: first words
>
>
>
> Alison,
>       This would be the earliest reported use of a word by several
> months.  The previous earliest reported use was from Ponori  (1897)
> who reports the first word at seven months.
> If you think your observation was solid, I think it quite important
> to get this out more clearly in public.
> Many thanks.
>
> --Brian MacWhinney
>
> On Sep 13, 2006, at 3:59 PM, Alison Crutchley wrote:
>
>> Actually I did mean four months from birth... But I think your
>> point is well made. Given that lang acq is so individually
>> variable, knowing that a child produced a word or structure at a
>> certain age doesn't mean much. But if we know the 'starting point'
>> - when the first word appeared for each child - this might mean
>> that individuals could be more easily compared with one another...?
>>
>> best wishes Alison
>>
>>
>> .....................................................................
>> .
>> ......
>> Dr Alison Crutchley
>> Course Leader, English Language
>> School of Music, Humanities and Media
>> University of Huddersfield
>> Queensgate
>> Huddersfield, UK. HD1 3DH
>>
>> a.crutchley at hud.ac.uk
>> http://www.hud.ac.uk/mh/english/research/ac.htm
>> .....................................................................
>> .
>> ......
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Brian MacWhinney [mailto:macw at cmu.edu]
>> Sent: Wed 13/09/2006 5:29 PM
>> To: Alison Crutchley
>> Cc: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>> Subject: Re: first words
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Alison et al.,
>>      Your observations suggest an interesting new method of computing
>> time in child language acquisition.  When you use the phrase "in the
>> first few months," I believe you mean something like "in the first
>> few months after the onset of language" or "in the first few months
>> after the first word."  Then, later, when you refer to your sons use
>> of "bears" at four months, I assume you mean his use of this word at
>> "four months after the onset of language."
>>     It makes good sense for child language people to think in these
>> terms.  Of course, it requires a firm commitment to the time of the
>> first word.  But this is not all that different from the commitment
>> to the time of the beginning of the Christian era or the Buddhist
>> calendar.  How about 4 months AL (ante lingua)?
>>
>> --Brian MacWhinney
>>
>> On Sep 13, 2006, at 3:38 AM, Alison Crutchley wrote:
>>
>>> Tina highlights part of the difficulty in establishing what a
>>> 'first word' is. In the first few months we made up stories for our
>>> son involving elk, igloo(s) and legs, as these were all 'words'
>>> that he produced on a fairly regular basis. Of course there was no
>>> reason to think he was 'using' these 'words'. (Not many igloos in
>>> Yorkshire, although I did jump when I was carrying him down the
>>> road in the sling at about 4 months and he shouted 'Bears!').
>>>
>>> So it's not just the children who may be relying on a convergence
>>> of linguistic and non-linguistic cues to establish meanings...
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I think our son's first 'real' word was 'hiya' - only
>>> said when clamping a phone (or phone-shaped object) to his ear.
>>>
>>> Alison
>>>
>>>
>>> ....................................................................
>>> .
>>> .
>>> ......
>>> Dr Alison Crutchley
>>> Course Leader, English Language
>>> School of Music, Humanities and Media
>>> University of Huddersfield
>>> Queensgate
>>> Huddersfield, UK. HD1 3DH
>>>
>>> a.crutchley at hud.ac.uk
>>> http://www.hud.ac.uk/mh/english/research/ac.htm
>>> ....................................................................
>>> .
>>> .
>>> ......
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org on behalf of tina.bennett
>>> Sent: Tue 12/09/2006 10:17 PM
>>> To: info-childes at mail.talkbank.org
>>> Subject:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One of my daughters used, as her first word (at
>>> about 6 months) /da/, meaning "that", with rising intonation,
>>> accompanied by pointing to objects she wanted us to name.
>>>
>>> She also produced a very credible "hi" when just
>>> two weeks old and we were ignoring her in favor
>>> of a football game on television. Even my father,
>>> a speech pathologist, heard it and his mouth dropped open.
>>> It was the first thing we used to say to her every time we
>>> initiated interactions. But of course
>>> it is impossible for a newborn to have done such a thing.
>>>
>>> -Tina Bennett-Kastor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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