LL-L: "Plautdietsch" 07.JUL.2000 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 07.JUL.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: gdeutsch at estec.esa.nl
Subject: LL-L: "Plautdietsch" 06.JUL.2000 (03) [E]

Georg Deutsch at ESA
07/07/2000 11:19

thank you Peter, Croistoir and Ron for your interesting contributions.
I think, if not yet done (at the time I have no possibility to check) there

should be a reference in the Lowlands-L website to
www.plautdietsch-freunde.de

I understand the problematic situation of families of Plautdietsch origin,
where the younger generation speaks only Russia. Coming to Germany
obviously
the most likely scenario is that they only learn German and forget about
their Low Saxon heritage.
However, I do not really understand, how the low status is experienced if
Plautdietsch is only used for religious service.
If one has a religious involvement, which mostly is the case if church
services are visited, than I would rather expect that Plautdietsch has a
very
high status, like maybe Coptic in Egypt.
But obviously THIS high status does not mean that the language as used
vernacular is not in danger.

It would be further interesting to know whether there are any contact with
''authochthon'' North Low Saxon speakers, or at least whether there is a
consciousness about the close relation.

Thanks again four reactions on my query.
(I will not be able to read any further reactions in the next two weeks)

Kind regards

Georg D.

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Plautdietsch

Georg,

Much of what you wrote above seems to be based on the assumption that
Plautdietsch enjoys high prestige in Mennonite society.  Perhaps my earlier
remark had escaped your attention.  So, please, let me reiterate that, as
far as I have gleaned from my readings here and elsewhere, Plautdietsch
does generally *not* enjoy high prestige in most communities that use it,
and it certainly is not seen as some sort of sacred language, being used
for liturgical purposes only in a minority of cases.  I am sure that
Plautdietsch is *beloved* by many or most as a mode of expression in home,
family, community, etc., a "language of the heart," but in most cases
"High" German has been considered a superior mode.  At least this is what I
have been told more than once.  If this is correct, we might conclude that
the status of Plautdietsch is not very different from  that of other Low
Saxon (Low German) varieties, and the situation is practically identical to
that of many non-Mennonite dialects used in American communities in which
both German and Low Saxon are minority languages.

We might even go one step farther and compare the situation of Plautdietsch
in Mennonite communities to that of Yiddish and Ladino in Jewish
communities, Askenazi and Sephardi respectively, where these are considered
the languages of home and congregation, while Hebrew has been the _lashon
kodesh_ (pronounced _loshn koydesh_ by Askenazim), the "sacred tongue."
Especially Yiddish traditionally had low prestige, and Yiddish writing
essentially began as a way to reach in writing, in the everyday spoken
_daytsh_ ('German') language, female community members, few of whom used to
learn more Hebrew than was necessary for their prayers and blessings.
While "High" German apparently is not considered a sacred language among
traditional Mennonites, it seems to enjoy the status of a mode for "higher"
purposes, including religious ones.  As far as I know, the rise of secular
literature in Yiddish, Ladino and Plautdietsch, and indeed in all Low
Saxon, is a result of more recent movements one of whose aims it has been
to allow people to write in their own, natural languages rather than in a
"elevated" modes using "superior" studied languages.

I would be interested to know if our Plautdietsch-speaking friends agree
with this description.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: Plautdietsch

Dear all,

Russian harrassment has of course far outstripped
whatever 'harrassment' was visited upon Russians in
Central Asia, and there have of course been cases
where 'ethnic' Russians and 'ethnic' Germans have
learnt the local language and been absorbed into the
local culture. Indeed my example of the Chechenised
German named Weiss who later fought in the Chechen War
of Independence in 1994 shows that native cultures in
the Central Asian and Caucasian regions at least had a
favourable attitude toward those who took the effort
to assimilate or attempt to absorb some non-Soviet
(i.e., 'Great Russian') culture.

There is also nothing wrong in encouraging proficiency
in the local native language or languages; indeed, one
could argue that it was the LEAST an ethnic Russian
who had been placed in a position of power in the
Central Asian region by Moscow SHOULD have done, and
the relative dearth of Russian respect for local
customs and cultures only goes to show what a complete
fallacy the idea of a 'freely associated' and
multinational Soviet Union was.

It is perhaps ironic then that bilingualism, despite
being such a wonderful gift, was actively opposed by
ethnic Russians. They could have learnt so much.
Perhaps those still in Kazakstan etc. still can.

Similarly the issue of anti-Islamic sentiment is a
pertinent one and neither should we forget the
harrassment (often violent physical assault) that
greeted Chechens and any other non-ethnic Russians in
Russia when the War broke and indeed the harshness of
the Soviet exportations themselves, in which many
thousands died of starvation, exposure or were
murdered because they "caused trouble". To endure
that, and then be exonerated and allowed to return to
your homeland to find it has been populated by
Russians in your enforced absence must have been
horrific.

I would agree with you Ron that a sudden change in the
Soviet-sponsored good fortune of ethnic Russians would
no doubt have prompted many to cry "harrassment" and
the issue of an unwillingness to learn local languages
cannot be ignored. In many ways Central Asian Russian
reaction to the independence of countries like
Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan and so forth was of typical
colonisers who had been caught out. The evidence of
the well-being of those Russians who did take pains to
assimilate only goes to show that those who made the
effort - whether Tatar, Russian, Belarusian, German or
Ukrainian - were on the whole accepted.

In relation to Plautdietsch, however; on the
circumstantial evidence that I have, those religious
communities such as the Anabaptists which were
considered 'heretical' on the whole seemed to retain
their language far longer than other emigrants, for
reasons I can only put down to liturgy (as I have
mentioned) and the sense of community such a shared
cultural totem invokes, particularly in areas like
Altai, Sakha, Khakassia and other desolate places far
removed from an (imagined) idyllic Saxony. Witness the
retention of German amongst the Amish of the United
States of America for a similar example.

My mother is Cornish and I grew up partially in
Cornwall and it has often been pointed out by Cornish
nationalists and scholars that if the liturgy had been
in Cornish and not English (which was enforced by
Henry VIII's Reformation), then Cornish would probably
still enjoy the relative numbers that Welsh and Breton
retain today. Indeed, in 1549 a Cornish host marched
on London "refusing this new English, of which many of
us know no English."

Linguistic imperialism, eh? The rod of all our backs
here at Lowlands-L.

Criostoir.

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: Plautdietsch

Dear all,

In addition to all this discussion about Plautdietsch
in the Soviet Union and its successor states, does
anyone have any information about the scattered
Germans - Plautdietsch speakers therein included - in
the east of Europe, specifically Silesia and Romania?
Romania in particular once had as many as 250,000
Germans - have they all emigrated to Germany now?

Criostoir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Plautdietsch

Criostoir,

Just a reminder that German other than German with Lowlandic substrates or
German in relation to Lowlandic is not within the focus of the List, though
it may be discussed for marginal information.  Anything specifically
German-focussed without any obvious Lowlandic angle should thus be
discussed in private communication off the List.  The same goes for North
Germanic varieties.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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