LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 20.NOV.2000 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 20.NOV.2000 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: dborland [dborland at xtra.co.nz]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 20.NOV.2000 (03) [E]

Hi,

"A language is a dialect with an army"

David

----------

From: dborland [dborland at xtra.co.nz]
Subject: Language varieties

Hi,

Years ago I met some mixed race people from Rabaul, Papua New Guinea, who
spoke a language they called "Unserdeutsch". Their German was very
different to anything I had heard before, and they told me it was based on
late 19th century "North German". I understand there are only several
hundred speakers of  Unserdeutsch remaining, most having moved to
Australia.

As most German colonialists and plantation owners came from North Germany
(Hamburg, Bremen) to then German New Guinea, I was wondering if
Unserdeutsch is old Hochdeutsch or Plattdeutsch or a variety of both? Does
anyone know?

Thanks

David Borland

----------

From: From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

David, you wrote above:

> "A language is a dialect with an army"

This statement, apparently first made by Max Weinreich (and also containing
"... and a navy" I believe), has been debunked many times over, here and
elsewhere, but it has a way of coming back out of the woodwork every now
and then.  No one in their right mind would argue that the following are
not languages, even though none of them is "with an army," at least not for
the past several centuries: Aimará, Ainu, Aleut, Aranda, Balinese, Basque,
Bengali, Catalan, Evenki, Frisian, Gaelic, Galician, Gujarati, Hawaiian,
Ilokano, Inuqtitut, Malayalam, Maori, Marathi, Nanai, Navaho,
Neomelanesian, Parnkalla, Petjoh, Pitjantjara, Punjabi, Quechua, Romani
("Gypsy"), Saame ("Lapp"), Sorbian (Lusatian), Sundanese, Tamil, Tatar,
Tlingit, Uyghur, Welsh, Yupik, etc., etc.

You also asked if Unserdeutsch contains Low Saxon/Low German elements.  I
have looked at samples of this language but have been unable to detect any
such elements.  I would be very interested to know if anyone else can show
that such elements exist.  The missionaries may have been from Northern
Germany, but they are unlikely to have used Low Saxon in their work, even
if they had learned it while growing up.  It was simply not the "cultured"
thing to do, not the kind of "German" to teach the "Natives" who were
supposed to be lifted up culturally and spiritually.  "High" German was and
is considered the only prestigeous type of "German."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
    to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
    <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
    type of format, in your submissions
  =====================================================================