LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 19.SEP.2000 (02) [E/F]

Tue Sep 19 14:34:25 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.SEP.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 18.SEP.2000 (04) [E]

Stefan wrote:

>Henry
>
>> A few days ago I read somewhere that Old-Saxon had "beorn",
>> meaning "child".
>
>We need to keep Old English/Anglo-Saxon distinct from Old Saxon
>the predecessor of Platt.  Germanic *barn "child" became bearn
>in Old English (beorn is Old English for "bear") and stayed
>_barn_ in Old Saxon.
>
I wasn't mixing them up, I was just saying I read it somewhere. That's all.
If it's incorrect, I'll believe it.

regards,
Henry

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From: Reiner Brauckmann [Reiner.Brauckmann at FernUni-Hagen.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I am not aware of a cognate of _barn_ and _bairn_ for 'child' in any
> modern variety of the "Low German" group of languages, i.e., Dutch,
> Afrikaans and Low Saxon (Low German).  However, Old Saxon did have _barn_
> 'child'.  I am not sure about Old Low Franconian.  If such a word
> survived, I would expect to find *_bern_ in Dutch and Afrikaans, and
...
Westfalian 'Blage' means child , and 'Hauhnerblage' means
chicken. It seems, that other Lowlanders dont know this word.

Reiner

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Reiner,

It is _Blage_ or _Blaag'_ for 'child' (f. ~ n., pl. _Blagen_) in several North
Saxon dialects also.  Most often it denotes 'naughty child', 'brat', similar
to _Göör_.  *_Hö(h)nerblaag'_ for 'chickens' is new to me.  What is that
about?  Perhaps Westphalian chickens are particularly naughty, difficult to
manage?  ;)

Does anyone have any idea about the etymology of _Blage_ > _Blaag'_?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 18.SEP.2000 (04) [E]

Edwin wrote:

>>I'm also interested in the "frozen" words, such as "numb", that's the only
>>survivor of the original verb "to nimb", meaning "to take" (Scandinavian
>>loanword - Danelaw !).
>
>Not really the only survivor - there's also "nimble" [quick to
>seize].  "Numb" has the meaning of "seized", as in a "seizure."  What makes
>you say it is a Scandanavian loanword?  This root is very common in all
>Germanic languages.
>
In Low-Saxon we have "nemmen" (to take), of which the past tense is "nömmen",
which sounds almost exactly as "numb" in English without the "b".

grooten,
Henry

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From: Michaël COENCA [michael.coenca at culture.gouv.fr]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 18.SEP.2000 (04) [E]

At 19:45 18/09/00 -0700, vous avez écrit:
> >I'm also interested in the "frozen" words, such as "numb", that's the only
> >survivor of the original verb "to nimb", meaning "to take" (Scandinavian
> >loanword - Danelaw !).
>
>Not really the only survivor - there's also "nimble" [quick to
>seize].  "Numb" has the meaning of "seized", as in a "seizure."  What makes
>you say it is a Scandanavian loanword?  This root is very common in all
>Germanic languages.  Possibly related to L "numerus" and Gk "nomos" in the
>sense of "distributing" or "alloting", as in meting out justice.  Speaking
>of altered meanings, the Germanic use of the root may be "alloting by
>force" as in taking.

No no, maybe was I not clear enough :
I said that "to nimb" is the Old Saxon original (cf. Dutch "nemen"), but
the primary meaning was replaced by the new verb "to take", which is a
loanword from Scandinavian during Danelaw.
Cf. the usual Swedish phrase "ta det lugnt !" which means "take it easy".
But thanx for the "nimble" !

----------------------------------------------------------
Michael COENCA - Paris, France

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From: HS Brandsma [hsbrand at sloep154.cs.vu.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 15.SEP.2000 (01) [E]

Pepijn hat skreaun:

> The alternation also occurs in the form _was_ vs. _were_ as
> singular and plural form respectively of the past tense of _to be_.
> Interestingly, Dutch has retained the same alternation _was_ vs.
> _waren_ whereas German has generalised the _r_ to which the
> forms _war_ vs. _waren_ testify.

It standert Westerlauwersk Frysk hat hjir ek analogysk de foarmen
gelyk makke:

ik wie
do wiest
hy wie
wy/jimme/hja wiene

wie< a^lder "wier",
wiene < a^lder "wierne" < *we:rene
(besterke troch de analogy mei "hie", "hiene" (u't *hied, *hiedene,
de doetiid fan "hawwe".)

Mar it Skylgers bewarret de a^ldere tasta^n: ik waas, meartal wy
wienen.
Dit jildt ek foar it Sealtersk, en in deel fan it Noardfrysk.

> There are other relics to be found in Dutch, such as _uitverkoren_
> 'chosen', which is related to the verb _uitverkiezen_ 'to choose'.
> These are cognate to forms of the archaic German _erküren_ 'to
> choose, elect' (past tense _erkor_, past participle _erkoren_)

Frysk: kieze -- keas -- keazen. Hjir hat de z it wu^n. Mar ferlykje
"kar"= choice. Ek a^lder "*kern" hat bestien.
By _ferlieze_ giet it just oarsom:
ferlieze -- ferlear -- ferlern. No hawwe beide in r.
ek frieze: frieze -- frear -- ferzen (mei metatesis yn it mulwurd).

> -Pepijn

Henno

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From: HS Brandsma [hsbrand at sloep154.cs.vu.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (01) [E]

koartby skreau david strommen [si00924 at navix.net]
> Subject: LL-L:interesting word for children-Bairns (E)
>
> I was interested in the word "bairns" in your Scots quote "bairns are ti be
>
> seen an no heard", is this the common Scots word for children?  the Nordic
> word for children is barn with various plurals.  Did Scots get this from
> us?
> Sincerely David Strommen

Hard to give a solid reply to that, as a matter of fact.
As others have pointed out, the word exists in languages that have not
been as heavily influenced by Norse languages as Scots/Northern Anglo
Saxon has been. Eg Anglo-Saxon _beorn_, Old-Saxon _barn_, Old Frisian
_bern_ (whence Modern West Frisian _bern_ [bE:n], Saterfrisian
_ba"iden_ [be:id at n], esfh.). The stem is the same as in _born_, and so
the word is related to the Common Germanic (and Indo-European (ferre
in Latin, phero: in Greek)) verb "to bear", from  *beran, I think.
So "that which is carried by a woman" is sort of the original meaning.
It might have played a role that the Danes had a similar word, so that
the contact between the two languages have strenghtened the word in
Northern Anglo-Saxon (and so in later North-English and Scots
dialects). Presumably the word was already there, as testifies by the
close linguistic relatives on the mainland.
Similar things have happened with some words in North Frisian as well
(the have had contact with the Jutes since their first settlement),
like _uurs_ = springtime (also Old-Germanic, but now Scandinavian and
North Frisian only).

Henno Brandsma

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