LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 05.APR.2001 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Pepijn Hendriks [pepijnh at bigfoot.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (03) [E]

R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com] wrote;

>For the benefit of those who do not understand Frisian let me add that
>_omkesizzer_ and _muoikesizzer_ literally mean "uncle sayer" and "aunt
>sayer" respectively.

Standard Dutch has _oomzegger_ (and _oomzegster_). I have never
heard _tantezegger_, however. It is used to distinguish between a
cousin and a nephew/niece, which are both _neef_/_nicht_ in
Dutch. As far as I know it is used as an explanation only, not as a
stand-alone term.

>> That word goes back over 6000 years, to Proto-Indo-European
>> *(s)nusos "daughter-in-law": OE snoru, early New High German
>> Schnur, , Crimean Gothic schnos, Latin  nurus, Greek nuos.  It
>> is tentatively connected to the _nubile_ root *(s)neubh- "to
>> woo, marry"
>I take it that IE *_neubh-_ is the origin of some of the Slavic words
>for 'bride' as well: e.g., Czech, Slovak, Sorbian, Serbo-Croatisan
>_nevesta_, as well as Russian _nevestka_ 'daughter-in-law'.

Russian _snoxa_ is derived from the IE root *_snus-_. It means
'daughter-in-law', but only to be used by the father of the husband.
The mother of the husband would use _nevestka_.

For Russian the following goes (from the 1993 edition of Ozhegov's
dictionary):

_nevesta_ 'bride; (coll.) girl who has reached marriageable age'
_nevestka_ 'wife of brother or wife of son, but also a a married
woman in relation to the brothers and sisters of her husband (and
their wifes and husbands)'

Family relations in Russian are terribly complex, with different terms
for man and woman to describe the same relationship. For example,
a woman's parents-in-law are _svëkor_ 'father-in-law' and
_svekrov'_ 'mother-in-law', a man's counterparts are _test'_ and
_tëshcha_ respectively.

(Schemes outlining family relations can be found in Genevra
Gerhart's book _The Russian's World. Life and Language_, p. 15-17
in my 1974 edition; there is an updated post-Soviet edition
available, which I'm sure includes these schemes also.)

-Pepijn

--
 pepijnh at gmx.net -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~pepijnh -- ICQ - 6033220

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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: Kinship

> I take it that IE *_neubh-_ is the origin of some of the
> Slavic words for
> 'bride' as well: e.g., Czech, Slovak, Sorbian, Serbo-Croatisan
> _nevesta_, as > well as Russian _nevestka_ 'daughter-in-law'.

Quite possibly-  my Pokorny etymological dictionary lists Czech
_snoubiti_ "to woo, engage", and Old Church Slavic _snubiti_ "to
wed 2 people to each other".  I'm not a Slavicist, but the
connection looks possible, particularly given how initial _s_
was often elided in Proto-Indo-European.
That root also gives us Greek _nymphe_ "bride, virgin, nymph"
and nymphios_ "bridegroom".
The dictionary also adds that this root and the *snusos
"daughter-in-law" root likely come from a root *sneu- "to wind
threads together, tie"

Stefan Israel

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From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (03) [E]

Dear Ron,

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Kinship
>
> Andrys wrote:
>
> > In Westerlauwers Frisian (though I never use it myself) there is/was
> > omkesizzer and muoikesizzer for cousin, which places the emphasis
> > squarely on the relationship between the people involved. I don't
> > know how wide spread those terms are.
>
> For the benefit of those who do not understand Frisian let me add that
> _omkesizzer_ and _muoikesizzer_ literally mean "uncle sayer" and "aunt sayer"
> respectively.  To an outsider like me the terms themselves are not
> self-explanatory as denoting "cousin." The question here is who says _omke_
> and _muoike_ to whom.  Had you not given the explanation, my first guess would
> have been that _omkesizzer_ and _muoikesizzer_ mean 'nephew' or 'niece',
> namely a person who addressed *me* as _omke_ 'uncle' (or as _muoike_ 'aunt' if
> I were female).  However, going by your explanation, an _omkesizzer_ and
> _muoikesizzer_ seems to be a person who calls *my parents* _omke_ and
> _muoike_.  Is this correct?

No, it isn't. _Omkesizzer_ and _muoikesizzer_ are indeed 'nephew' and
'niece'. People with a Dutch language background easily confuse these
with 'cousin', because Dutch 'neef(je)' can be both nephew and cousin,
and 'nicht(je)' has similar ambiguity. In Dutch 'oomzegger' and
'tantezegger' are used sometimes as well, also outside Fryslân.

A particular weirdness in Dutch is the word for brother-in-law:

 sister-in-law: schoonzus(ter)
 father-in-law: schoonvader
 mother-in-law: schoonmoeder
 brother-in-law: zwager

The word _schoonbroer_ is used significantly less than _zwager_.

Kind regards,
Floor van Lamoen.

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (03) [E]

A chairde,

It's pleasing to see that the kinship discussion has
stirred up so much excitement. Thanks to everyone for
their contributions: I hope I speak for the whole of
the silent section of Lowlands-L when I say how much I
enjoy it.

It was intriguing to contrast varying kinship terms
and the Castillian cognate was especially
enlightening. Are we supposing that the Castillian
term is a relic from proto-Indo-European or that it is
a loanword, perhaps from the Vandals or the other
Germanic peoples who invaded Iberia? And does the
Castillian "nuera" not have cognates in Catalan,
Galician, Asturianu and/or regional mother tongues
within the rest of the Spanish State?

Something else struck me as I spooled through the
terminology we use in the speech community I belong
to. This is the preponderance and pre-eminence of the
naming term "our" before a person's name to indicate
that they are a part of the "clan" (for want of a
better term), e.g. "our Chris", "our Jamie", "our
Nicola" etc. This seems limited to the biological
relations in a clan. Does this use have cognates in
any of the other Lowland languages? I have often
considered that it is a defining feature between the
northern (who use it) and the southern English (who
don't). Could this be more evidence for a historical
difference?

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Kinship

Críostóir wrote:

> Something else struck me as I spooled through the
> terminology we use in the speech community I belong
> to. This is the preponderance and pre-eminence of the
> naming term "our" before a person's name to indicate
> that they are a part of the "clan" (for want of a
> better term), e.g. "our Chris", "our Jamie", "our
> Nicola" etc. This seems limited to the biological
> relations in a clan. Does this use have cognates in
> any of the other Lowland languages?

In which of the following context(s) do you use "our" before a name?

(1) in all contexts

(2) when talking about a member of one's own family to someone who
    is not a member of the same family

(3) when talking to a member of one's own family about another
    member of one's own family

(4) when addressing the relative whose name is preceded by "our"

In Low Saxon (Low German) of Northern Germany, too, _us_ [?Us] or _uns_
[?U.ns] 'our' is often used before the name of one's own family member when
talking about a member of one's own family to someone inside or outside the
family.  This may be clearly done for emphasis or distinction (e.g., _Us
Hinnerk is veel aardiger as de Krögersch ehr Hinnerk_ 'Our Henry is much
better behaved than Ms. Kröger's Henry'), but emphasis or distinction may be
weak or absent (e.g., _Daar kümmt us Hinnerk_ 'There's our Henry coming', _Us
Hinnerk hett sik in de Krögersch ehr Trien verkeken_ 'Our Henry has a crush on
Ms. Kröger's Cathy').  I suppose this type of device is necessary in small
traditional communities with relatively few first names available and no or
infrequent use of surnames in the "modern" sense, and I can see this
perpetuated as such communities grow.  You can add _u(n)s_ before kinship
terms as well (e.g., _Nu verklatsch mi maal nich bi us Vadder_ 'Now don't go
and snitch on me to ("our father") dad").  (This latter version is like as the
Japanese device _uchi no {kinship term}_ "the {kinship term} of (our) home,"
e.g., _uchi no haha_ 'my/our mother'.)  Similar devices are also found in
various German dialects of Northern Germany.  Don't you find them in Dutch and
Afrikaans too?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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