LL-L: "Orthography" LOWLANDS-L, 21.MAY.2001 (02) [S]

Tue May 22 00:32:31 UTC 2001

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From: Andy.Eagle at t-online.de (Andy Eagle)
Subject: LL-L: "Orthography" [E/S]

Sandy Fleming wrate in repone tae Andy Eagle:

>A think a wee jot o whaur the original is fae wad hae tae
>suffice, Andy, for that it wad tak a sicht mair than a
>"puckle" jottins tae say what aa A'd chynged. For example,
>if ye tak Burn's typical spellins (the nummers is frequencies
>in the sample text):

<sned>

>A div think tho, that A'd better keep _general_ jots on
>what A'v duin wi ilk makar, an pit them up on the site
>(A div aareddy hae a system o mairgins for haudin jots
>on the texts).

Wi a puckle jottins A juist meant lattin licht hou ye chynged it. i.e.
uisin
Scots spellins that better shaws the pronunciation. Reddin oot
inconceestency (as ye say) bi uisin the ae spellin etc.

>> >     o  correcting grammar;
>>
>> This is mebbes no a guid idea at aa. Chyngin spellins is ae thing,
chyngin
>> a bodie's wark is anither.

>It depends on what ye mean bi a body's wark. Leukin at
>the Tam O'Shanter it's obvious that Burns couldna possibly
>read it oot the wey he wrote it. It's obvious as weel that
>this poem is ettled for recitin oot lood, sae A think the
>best service could be duin Burns wad be tae edit it in a
>wey that wad lat fowk read it oot lood athoot makkin a
>bourach o'd.

A tak it Burns wis adherein tae some kin o 'idea o leeterar style'. Gin ye
change his orra gremmar ye cooud aye pit the oreeginal turn o phrase tae
shaw whit this 'idea o leeterar style' wis.

>Whan it comes tae some ither warks it can be different.
>Tak "Marget Pow", for example, whaur this is meant tae
>be a correspondence written bi a Scots wumman - Catherine
>P. Slater mibbie didna think this wis the best wey tae
>write Scots, but that sic a wumman as Marget Pow wis like
>tae write this wey, ettlin at her best English but no
>kennin onything but Scots idiom. But the beuk's readable
>amaist the wey it is - maist like for that we can see the
>realism o the situation whaur Burns is applyin artificial
>literary conventions that dinna wirk in Scots ava.

That's whit's sae guid aboot sic writin. Nae fantoush 'idea o leeterar
style'.
Guid Scots spelt uisin Suddron conventions.

<sned>

>Ay, hivvin duin this wrang wi Mitchell, A'm settled that
>chaingin the writer's dialeck is a richt skaith tae the text.
>Nou A'm juist ettlin at chaingin inappropriate anglifications
>an inconsistent spellins, whaur thae spellins disna show a
>differ in the soond o the wird.

Here ye hae the problem o monie pronunciation differs bein 'raiglar' fae
dialect tae dialect. Lik the Mitchel ensaumple wi 'throwe' = throu. Ye coud

uise 'throu' - 'throwe' juist bein the soothren pronunciation. The <ui> is
anither as wi <ei> an <ea> /i/ or /e/ etc.
Dae ye juist pynt oot that a parteeclar owthor spak a parteeclar dialect -
for ordinar seen in the rhymes - Rhymin throu wi howe is S. or heid wi lade

in NEC etc.
The onlie wirds that dinna fit is whaur dialects haes furms that dinna hae
a
raiglar correspondence (or A canna define it;-)) like NE 'wyme' for wame or

S thrae for frae etc.
Mebbe ye coud write thae wirds italic or siclike and hae a wee jottin whit
the 'general Scots' is.

For A while nou A'v been thinkin on reddin up ma reader alang dialects.
Still hae the general Scots spellins but pyntin oot tae tak tent that the
rhymes whiles onlie wirk gin the wark is read in the richt dialect. This o
coorse bein a 'poleetical' muive on ma pairt tae shaw that maist Scots
dialects can be wrutten uisin the sel same orthography - A dae allou a
wheen
dialect spellins tho- e.g. 'wame' an 'thrae' etc.Thare's no monie a fowk
wad
suin lairn the feck o thaim.

>A'm no richt shuir if Central spaekers wad A soondit them
>this wey in Burns's day. Up till aboot 1920 writers in
>Central never seemed tae mak mistaks like "fuit" an
>"abinn", sae A'm inclined tae think they sayed thae things
>different then - maist like wi a [y] or similar. Burns
>writes "aboon", "aff-loof", "blood" (11), "blude"(1),
>"bluid" (9), Clootie, Clooty, coof, cuifs, &c. A tak it
>that "oo" wis juist anither wey Burns haed o writin the
>"ui" diaphoneme, an liftit aff the English at that, sae
>A'm like tae say that this is wrang, espeecially for
>modern Scots, an sort it.

A canna (naither can onie ither bodie) pruive hou Burns spak. A wis gaun bi

the rhyme 'ane' wi 'aboon' (taen aboon tae be an Anglifee'd spellin).
Assumin ane = yin.
A certies gree that thon orra <oo> shoud be redd oot.

Aiblins the fact that writers afore the 1920's niver made mistaks lik
abuin - fuit etc. haes mair adae wi the writers bein Scots speakers
thirsels, sae thay kent the differ. A jalouse monie fowk that's no native
speakers or is uisin vocabular thay're no fameeliar wi comes oot wi fause
analogies, A'v e'en seen oo spelt 'wuil' in Lallans ;-).

<sned>

>> Wad the solution be tae spell ane - yin an aboon - abin etc. or in a
>> 'genereal Scots' ane, abuin /abune etc. But gin bodies pronounce thaim
>> wrang ye're back tae whaur ye stairtit.

>Ay, but syne it's no ma faut! General Scots is the answer
>wi a writer like Burns, cause he's maistly no writin in
>his ain dialeck, but ettlin a hiegher register tae little
>maiter.

<sned>

>A gree, ye can tak a horse tae watter but ye canna gar it drink.

>Ay, exackly. There should be a page, A dout, explainin
>the main diaphonemes an ither maiters, athoot tryin tae
>git ower lang-heidit aboot it - A wad stick tae a guide
>for readers raither than tryin tae explain aathing.

Thare's a seemlar page on ma dictionar at
www.scots-online.org/dictionary/spellguide.htm
Ye can rive bits aff it gin ye want.

>Ay, but "which" for "that"?! Serve him richt if A div
>chainge it!

Gaun! - dae it;-)

Andy Eagle

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