LL-L "Nomads" 2002.08.28 (01) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.AUG.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Nomads" 2002.08.27 (08) [E]

Hi. From wim wkv at home.nl

Larki and larka are the words for boy and girl in hindi, and tamil too
as far as I can remember... ***** vs _raklo_ 'non-Rom boy', _rakli_
'non-Rom girl'........looks a lot like them words are very old and very
foreighn indeed.

wim

[Wim Verdoold]

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Nomads

Wim,

> looks a lot like them words are very old and very
> foreighn indeed.

Just in case you are not already aware of it, Romany (which has many
varieties, of which some might be called languages) is an Indo-Aryan
language whose ancestor is believed to have come from northwestern India
(thus related to Hindi/Urdu, Sindh, Punjabi, Gujarati, etc.).

The earliest extant recording of Rom people in Northern Europe is from
around 1400, in the *Lowlands*, namely in Hilmssen/Hildesheim, Northern
Germany.  Hamborg/Hamburg is one of the major Roma centers in the world,
home to several pan-Roma organizations.  It is one of the few large
cities in which both Sinti and Romany proper are spoken, and there is a
fairly large sedentary Sinte population there.

Some time ago, we discussed this, and I mentioned that I found a few
Romany words that seem to be Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loans, in among
scores of German loans (with which especially Sinti abounds).
Unfortunately, I'm not able to find the material right now.

If you wish to learn more about the Rom ("Gypsy") people, I strongly
recommend the very educational web journal "Patrin"
(http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm).

By the way, another nomadic community in (mostly Southern) Germany,
Switzerland and Austria are the _Jenischen_ (_Yeniches_), probably the
closest thing to the "Tinkers" of the British Isles.  They are not Roma
but may have mixed or at least rubbed shoulders with them in the past
and lately have joined organizations that unite them with Roma and
Sinte.  (See e.g. http://www.jenisch.tk/).  They have their own
German-based jargon with lots of Romany- and Yiddish-based words (e.g.,
http://www.schallerweb.de/jenisch.html).

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.08.27 (03){E/D]

Moin, Ron,

(English below)

Du hesst schreeven:

> I can see the connection between "boy" and
>"street urchin," hence an extension to "vagabond" and "beggar."  (Street
>urchins used to be known to beg and/or pickpocket in the "good," old
>days.)  However, I am not aware of _Buttje_ being used to denote
>"beggar."

Mach woll ween, wat Du as *Hambörger Buttje* (*s*) dennen Bettelmann
opp'n
platten Lannen gonne sau kennen deihst.
In Ünnerscheeid tau dennen Grautstadt-Bettler inne Spitaler Stroot sitt
hei
natürlich ne op de Grund an 'n Steel, wo meuglichst veele Minschen
langlaupen dauht. Düsse Oort von *Geschäft"* schull sick in 'n Dörp oppe
Marsch woll ook ne lauhnen.
Hier wöör dat fröher sau un is 't mitünner noch, wat se von Huus tau
Huus
goht ("buttjert") un üm wat tau eeten or 'n Stück Geld froogt. Sei sünn'
ook
meirstens schier antrokken un raseert; sei versöökt no Meuglichkeit,
frünnlich un' höflich tau erschienen.
Mi dücht, Du schullst door woll eider "Tippelbruder" tau seggen.

May be, that a *Hamburger Buttje" like You are (*s*) doesn't know so
well
the beggar "-man" at the flat country.
Very different from a city-beggar in the Spitaler Straße (shopping
street in
Hamburg) he doesn't sit on the ground at a place well frequented by many
people. This kind of *business* would not be very profitably in a little
village of the marshlands.

Here, in former times and sometimes still today, they use to go
("buttjer")
from house to house, asking for some foot or money. At most times they
are
quite well dressed and shaved; they try to appear friendly and politely.

I guess, You should prefer to call them (U.G.) "Tippelbruder" (E.)
"tramp".

Greutens un Regards

Fiete

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