LL-L "Orthography" 2002.02.04 (04) [S]

Mon Feb 4 18:10:47 UTC 2002

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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at altavista.net>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.01.31 (03) [S]

Sandy wrate,

>I'd forgot aboot thon tables in LAS3! I'll hae tae hae a
>leuk an see if this wadna be juist the thing for database
>analysis.

I'v typit aa the Shetland wittins inti Excel in modified SAMPA, an
importit it inti Access whaur I coud query it wi SQL. But this wad be a
byordinar trauchle for the hale LAS3.

Mairatower, the LAS is no awfu reliable whan it comes ti sinderin
phonemes frae allophones.
>
>This maximum's interestin for the fack that vowel systems
>o mair than nine vowels (coontin the schwa but no coontin
>diphthongs nor separate allophones, nor differs purely adae
>wi length) is considered rare - tho RP English haes ten, I
>believe.

Hou monie dis SSE hae? Wad it be like meenimum Scots, but wi /O/ an
wi'oot /Y/? Or wad /O/ an Q/ be the same? Aitken's airticle in The
Oxford Companion to the English Language says it haes 14 includin
diphthongs 'the monophthongs and diphthongs total 14 vowel sounds,
perhaps the smallest vowel system of any long-established variety of
English.' He disna leet thaim, tho, an I canna think on onie ither beuks
I hae at wad. My ain English is nae uiss for analysin, cause it haes
mair sinderins nor ordinar SSE - like cot/caught an cam/calm.
>
>Is it possible that Scots haes taen on a vowel or twa ower
>mony an this explains some o the langage chainge the past
>twathree centuries, wi the front roondit vowels bein tint
>at least twa gates ("Doric" an "Glesca" :), an this mergin
>ye've been on aboot?

Hit's adae wi the reflexes in modren Scots an SSE o auld Scots phonemes,
at in turn derives frae Auld English. CSD an Johnston baith haes some
wittins aboot this. Sae the differin vowels is heired frae aulder Scots,
but mixtered awa in a lot o modren Scots dialects.
>
>> Sae coud it be at, in your dialect, the vowel I'v caa'd /O/ is
>> aye short, but the
>> /o/ ane merges wi it whiles, whan an whaur bein steered bi the SVLR?
>
>Juist what I wis thinkin.

Sae ye wad need /O/ (or whit linguists tends ti caa a A2 vowel) than?
>
>> Anither complication I didna mention is at some dialects pits
>> thegither /O/ an
>> /A/ whiles. Maist aa SSE speakers dis this. Sae my wife an bairns says
>> somethin
>> like [kQ;?] (dinna ken gin [;] is richt SAMPA for hauf-lang) for baith
>> _caught_
>> an _cot_, whaurbyes I say [kQt] (or mibbie [kOt]) an [kQ:t]. The vowel
>> poseetion
>> is aiblins juist a bittie different, but the main differ is the lenth.
>>
>> This laeds ti some fankles in Scots spellin, for example,
>> _dochter/dauchter_.
>
>Weel, I wad say [ko?] for baith "caught" an "cot" (an whiles
>"coat"), but [dQ:xt at r]. Tho A'm gittin kin o lost here anent
>what aa that means!

I wis speakin aboot whan my wife an bairns is speakin SSE - no whan
thay'r speakin Scots - cause I wis tryin ti illustrate the want o a
[Q/Q:] sinderin in maist SSE accents. I daursay my wife wad say [ko?]
tae, if she wis speakin the Fife Scots she grew up wi, tho i the NE I
dout it wad be mair like [kQ?] (tho a mair conservative kintra twang
micht keep the final [t].)
>
>> Sae _dochter_ groups wi _brocht_, _bocht_, etc. But in the LAS,
>> for Tranent, I
>> see _dochter_ groups wi e.g. _lauch_ wi a unroondit [A] vowel, whaurbyes
>> _bocht_,
>> _wrocht_ etc. haes a roondit [Q] vowel; an sae it wad naiturally be spelt
>> <dauchter>.

NE haes the same groupin, BTW - sae lauch [la:x], trauchle [tra:xl] but
dochter [dOxt at r] or [dOT at r], thocht [TOxt].
>
>Ternent is a awfu typical Lothian dialeck - different in some
>weys fae my ain even tho I gaed tae the High Schuil thair.
>Houanever, I've aye thocht on Ternent fowk as _aye_ uisin the
>roondit form for ony kin o lang <a>/<au> spellin. I'll hae tae
>hae a leuk at the LAS an see if that's no juist my ain bigoted
>perception o Ternent fowk!

LAS is no ayewis reliable aboot things like this. For example, words
like _tocht_, _brocht_ (at I say [tout], [bout] an aulder fowk wad sayed
[touCt], [bouCt]) is leetit in the LAS section for Hamnavoe (Burra Isle)
as haein a centralised [Q] monophthong. This is that uncharactereestic o
Burra at the'r actually a funny story telt aboot ae mannie (at bade
across the road frae me, but his forebears wis frae anither pairt o
Shetland), the punchline bein 'Hit wrocht [rQxt] juist laek we tocht
[tQxt].' The raeson this story is telt is for the effect o the non-Burra
pronunciations in the punchline, at wis thocht funny in Burra! Sae whaur
the LAS got thair wittins, deil kens.
>
>> >> This is juist me thinkin wi my fingers (better nor my heid, I daursay!)
>> >> an gettin cairit awa as uisual. But I dout I maun be awed
>> >> tippence-ha'penny bi nou!
>> >
>> >What's that in euros?
>>
>> I dout ye wad need ti raise it bi a negative pouer!
>
>How no juist lower it bi a positive pouer? Or raise it
>bi a positive pouer, like at British Home Stores?

Heh :-)>

John M. Tait.

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